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Do classes suck?August 28th, 2006 |
I was away, of course, but i am sure that plenty of people have expected me to jump in on the never-ending debate on class-based systems. So I thought I should, but with brevity.
Class based systems are:
- Simpler. Everyone has just one role to play, and a game is built out of bringing a fairly fixed handful of these roles together. It’s like a sports team. You gather a few defenders, a few attackers, and so on.
- Simpler means the permutations and combinations are easier to balance. Less permutations and combinations, natch. You can trap them all.
- It also means it’s heavily constrained, which makes it easy to learn and master. “You stay back here, and if the ball comes in this direction, you catch it.” “You stay back here, and if the ball tries to go in the goal, you stop it.” “You stay back here, and when the red bar on a teammate reaches this percentage, you hit this button.” Obviously, there are endless nuances, but this is a heavily constrained experience, very directed. Very different from one-on-one games like tennis, where you have to manage defense and offense both, for example.
- Lastly, it’s easy to communicate because it relies on archetypal roles very strongly. Healer, tanker, nuke, defender, attacker, goalie, etc.
It’s no accident, to my mind, that the MMORPGs have progressed more and more towards feeling like sports games, with raids and so on. It’s the thrill of being part of a well-oiled machine, where each has a role to play and knows how to play it well. The terminology is creeping towards similarity as well: I don’t think the term “pick-up group” is a linguistic accident, but rather a recognition of the ways in which the dynamics are much like a pick-up team in a sport.
Skill-based systems are, of course, none of the above. They are more complicated, harder to balance, so lacking in constraint that they often seem directionless, and hard to explain to users. But they do have some virtues that run contrary to the sports metaphor:
- Users aren’t locked in to one behavior; they can shift their nature or have more than one specialty. In a team-based game, this is generally a bad thing; you need intense focus.
- Class-based games have to be designed in a fairly static way; you cannot add a new role to soccer or baseball without throwing the whole thing out of whack. You can’t add a sniper to football, useful as it might be. In contrast, skill-based games are expandable because not all the roles need even aim at the same purpose.
- Which brings to mind another virtue, which is that there’s no assumption that every role is equal. This is something that is a lie in team-based games anyway. Everyone contributes, but sorry, some contribute more than others, and some roles are far less important than others, far easier than others, and far less active than others. Skill-based games can feel fre to say “sorry, this is a shallow role. If you aren’t satisfied by that, feel free to pick up some other stuff too.”
- And really, the fact that there can be multiple reasons to play is at the heart of it. This is why class-based systems have real trouble absorbing crafting, for example, and we often see the notion of having a separate parallel class system for crafting alongside the combat classes. It’s like asking a hockey team to also do embroidery during the match.
Of course, the game design secret here is that class systems and skill systems are the same thing; they simply have different parameters. A skill-system can have exclusive skills, pre-requisite skills, tiered skills, branching skills, mutually exclusive branches, and so on. Put in enough of these, and you tip over into what gets called a class system.
The question is, as always, what is the appropriate mix for the job. If you are making a game centered around teams, with clear singular objectives and one core system and mechanic, and nothing much else in the mix, then yes, of course, go with classes. Anything else would be a bit strange.
But if you’re making a virtual world with more than one thing to do, more than one game system, then they’ll make less sense. As soon as you have parallel game systems that don’t really overlap in their objectives, you’ll need to account for the fact that someone might be a hockey goalie and a herringbone stitcher. And the more of these you add to the mix, the less sense classes will make.
I leave the question of whether virtual worlds are destined to have one single core game mechanic as an exercise for the reader.
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“The buzz in the MMO blogosphere is yet another resurrection of the Class system vs. Skill system debate. A number of prominent online gaming bloggers have chimed in with their opinions on the subject, including: Scott Jennings, Raph Koster, Ryan Shwayder, Steve Danuser, Damion Schubert, and a host of others you can find linked on those blogs. The conclusion? Most of the devs favor class systems because of their simplicity and ease of communicating character roles, while a few devs and
The buzz in the MMO blogosphere is yet another resurrection of the Class system vs. Skill system debate. A number of prominent online gaming bloggers have chimed in with their opinions on the subject, including: Scott Jennings, Raph Koster, Ryan Shwayder, Steve Danuser, Damion Schubert, and a host of others you can find linked on those blogs. The conclusion? Most of the devs favor class systems because of their simplicity and ease of communicating character roles, while a few devs and
[...] Do Classes Suck? (Raph) [...]
[...] Comments [...]
[...] The topic of “Class vs Skill Systems” is a very very very very very very very very popular topic right now. [...]
[...] Intersting read. What do you think? http://www.raphkoster.com/2006/08/28/do-classes-suck/#more-660 [...]
[...] Raph Koster uses an analogy with sports to make a point about structure in multi-player games. He chose the wrong sport though. [...]
[...] Skill-based systems are (…): * Users aren’t locked in to one behavior; they can shift their nature or have more than one specialty. In a team-based game, this is generally a bad thing; you need intense focus. * Class-based games have to be designed in a fairly static way; you cannot add a new role to soccer or baseball without throwing the whole thing out of whack. You can’t add a sniper to football, useful as it might be. In contrast, skill-based games are expandable because not all the roles need even aim at the same purpose. * Which brings to mind another virtue, which is that there’s no assumption that every role is equal. This is something that is a lie in team-based games anyway. Everyone contributes, but sorry, some contribute more than others, and some roles are far less important than others, far easier than others, and far less active than others. Skill-based games can feel fre to say “sorry, this is a shallow role. If you aren’t satisfied by that, feel free to pick up some other stuff too.” * And really, the fact that there can be multiple reasons to play is at the heart of it. This is why class-based systems have real trouble absorbing craftingCrafting bezeichnet handwerkliche Berufe und Tätigkeiten von Spielercharakteren., for example, and we often see the notion of having a separate parallel class system for crafting alongside the combat classes. It’s like asking a hockey team to also do embroidery during the match. Link: Do classes suck? 150)?150:this.scrollHeight)”> __________________ [...]
[...] Well, it seems that Damion Schubert has rekindled the age-old fires of Classes vs. Skill-based character systems. I doubt that they were ever extinguished, but there’s a fury of articles coming up discussing it. Nerfbat and WorldIV trackback’d my article and even Raph linked me over on his site. My site traffic is probably the highest it’s ever been. Not bad for a place I use to dump my thoughts. Thanks guys. [...]
[...] Do classes suck? on Raph Koster Do classes suck? on Raph Koster I was away, of course, but i am sure that plenty of people have expected me to jump in on the never-ending debate on class-based systems. So I thought I should, but with brevity. Class based systems are: Simpler. Everyone has just one role to play, and a game is built out of bringing a fairly [...] via Raph Koster [...]
[...] Re: MMORPG To class or not? Perhaps this is relevant: http://www.raphkoster.com/2006/08/28/do-classes-suck/ ___________________________________________ http://www.iguanademos.com/Jare [...]
[...] How did I miss this? There’s been a flare up of the Class vs. Skill debate recently. You can track it across multiple blogs: Nerfbat, Zen of Design, Broken Toys, Moorgard, Nerfbat, Probably Not, Sierra Kilo, Raph Koster, World IV. [...]
[...] Do classes suck? [...]
[...] Raph Koster [...]
[...] * Classes (plus, If Quoting History, You Should Know It) (Ubiq) * Ubiq’s a Classy Guy (Lum) * Like School in Summertime (Moorgard) * Artificial Restrictions: Classes (Blackguard) * Stay Classy (j, probablynot) * MMORPG Classes (steve, Sierra Kilo) * Do Classes Suck? (Raph) [...]
[...] rn rn rn rn rn rn rn Classes vs Skills Discussionrn rn rn rn rn rn rn Apparently lately there has been a lot of discussion from various developers about the whole Classes vs Skills thing in MMO’s. I thought they might provide some worthwhile reading since I know it’s been a discussion long talked about here. So I figured I’d list a few (which each link to a few more ‘etc) to see what various people think on the topic.nnDo Classes Suck? – Raph KosternClass Systems Suck, Skill Systems SwallownClasses – Damion SchubertnBroken Toys – Scott JenningsnLike school in the summertime – Steve DanusernArtificial Restrictions: Classes – Ryan ShwaydernStay ClassynMMORPG Classes – Steve Madroguern rn rn rn rn rn rn rn rn rnrnrn [...]
[...] MMO: Class vs Skill? http://www.zenofdesign.com/?p=704 (great article, kinda stirred the current debate) http://www.raphkoster.com/?p=660 (or “wow, do I wish I was amazing as I think I am!”) http://www.nerfbat.com/?p=79 (or “twice the presumptuousness of Raph, with half the credibility!”) http://www.moorgard.com/?p=75 ( or “how many different ways can someone say nothing?”) This is a debate as old as time, with everyone digging in and entrenching themselves in their own personal opinions. In much the way someone is liberal as a youth and conservative as they age, my opinion on this topic has evolved as I went from MMO to MMO. For those that don’t know (new to MMO’s, etc), the arguement is over one of two characters systems: Skill-based vs Class-based. Class-based = WoW. You are a hunter, you have a defined set of skills based upon your class. No other classes have these abilities, and you can’t get the abilities of other classes. You are “arbitrarily” limited in what you can do based upon your class. Classes in RPG’s began in the 70’s with D&D though some would say Tolkein founded them in the 60’s. Skill-based = Elder Scrolls: Oblivion. Your “class” is nothing more then a name assigned to the skills you’ve chosen. You can have any skill in the game, to any level, with no restrictions of any kind. My opinion: Skills = Freedom, which the users love and the developers hate. Everyone wants to do what they want, without understanding or caring what it does to the game as a whole. Skill-based games ALWAYS end up with a “tankmage” class, the “optimum configuration”, that only the uber engineering number crunchers (*cough*Bolgrim*cough*) ever understand. It COMPLETELY alienates the casual gamers because there are simply too many options presented and no clear undestanding of how they work. Roughly 15% of the possible combinations are effective, and 20% are completely ineffective, and the new player has no clue whatsoever which is which. You think talent tree debates are insane? Try having every skill in WoW available to every character everywhere, and imagine how chaotic the “what combination is best?” fights would be. Class = structure, which the devs love and the power gamers hate. The devs try diligently to “balance” all the classes, so the new/casual player has a good chance of ending up with a viable character without having to use a slide ruler and own 3 different 2,000 page strategy guides. However, the power gamers spend all their time grousing about things one class can do that their chose class can not. They hate limits with a purple passion. Like many people, I find this debate amusing because, for me, I see the answer as very self-evident…depending upon the type of game being designed. If I want a small game with power players in it, I make it skill based and cut them loose. If I want a large game that is appealing to the masses, I make a class based one and keep things as balanced as possible._________________Krystallynn – 60 Druid The race is long…and in the end, it’s only with yourself. [...]
[...] http://www.raphkoster.com/2006/08/28/do-classes-suck/#more-660 [...]
[...] Damien at ZenOfDesign kicked off a debate about clas / skill systems in response to an article by Thomas Mortensen at MMORPG. You have to read the ZoD thread first for half of what follows to make the slightest bit of sense, and even then you’re going to disagree as people (players) seem to want to be EITHER class or skill based. Anyway, it’s sparked off a postathon by every dev/commentator/blogger who has an opinion to opine, and it’s great
Brenlo (Bixiebopper) writes: “It’s all about choice. So is one system any better than the other? Not in my opinion, folks just have preferences. Besides, it’s what happens after your character is defined that really counts.”Raph Koster is on the class/skill debate too.. naturally 
he comes down on both sides of the fence:”The question is, as always, what is the appropriate mix for the job. If you are making a game centered around teams, with clear singular objectives and one core system and mechanic, and nothing much else in the mix, then yes, of course, go with classes. Anything else would be a bit strange.But if you’re making a virtual world with more than one thing to do, more than one game system, then they’ll make less sense. As soon as you have parallel game systems that don’t really overlap in their objectives, you’ll need to account for the fact that someone might be a hockey goalie and a herringbone stitcher. And the more of these you add to the mix, the less sense classes will make.”Well, this is MY blog space, so even though I feel as intimidated as heck by having so many big names in one entry, I gots my own opinions on class/skill systems:”Neither classes nor skill based systems ’suck’ in and of themselves. It depends on what the player is expecting to be able to do within the game structure and how well the game design allows them to do that that results in a perception of suckiness.For instance, I roll a combat toon in a class based system and find that I can’t, for example, heal others. Does the class system suck, or does the problem lie in my choice of build?In a skill based system, I chose to invest on, say, defensive skills and heals to the stage where I can only do a little damage in combat but am effectively unkillable. Again, does the system suck or my choice of build? Obviously somebody who dislikes def stackers will have one PoV, the def stacker will have another.A skill based system that allows a player to build a good low level (in terms of effectiveness, not necessarily combat level) toon with a borad but shallow range of abilities allows the player to experience more of the options that the game allows before choosing to specialise on one particular field.Obviously the best example I can give of this is SWG where it was possible to take all the novice professions (thinly masked classes) and be a huntin’, shootin’ dancin’ medic who could do a little crafting with the resources he harvested. As your character developed you could then choose to drop the skills you didn’t need, or even have to sacrifice some that you’d have liked to have kept ie, at Master Ranger / Master Rifles it was not possible to have a large self heal as you couldn’t keep any of your medic skills.You could of course drop the master box of one of the profs and invest in medic but then your effectiveness as a hunter would be impacted. (Which of course takes me onto my other favourite hobbyhorse, choices and consequences. I’ll save that for another day 
)A well structured class system will allow the player to have, for example in the EQ ranger subclass, effective specialist combat skills and sufficient self buffs and heals which are consistent/coherent with the professions descriptors and player expectations. You will, of course, have to depend on other players for the skills and abilities that fall outside your chosen class.As I said, Idon’t think either system necessarily sucks, depending on it’s implementation. I do agree that a class system is generally easier to introduce to a player as you can point them at a defined archetype and say “that’s a paladin, that’s a pirate” and they’ll understand what can and can’t be done by that class within the game context. On the other hand, a free ranging skill based system allows for the sort of dynamic mix that you do find in real life where people have a multitude of skills that they can apply in different situations and which vary in value depending on their appropriateness for that situation.OK, I’ll stop there before this becomes a dissertation on Acquired and Ascribed Roles, Expectations and social token exchange… ” [...]
[...] Stupid posts: Raph Koster, Probably Not, Zen of Design, Broken Toys. [...]
Weekend Design Challenge: Classes vs. Skills
A while ago Damion Schubert opened a can of worms about Classes vs. Skill-based systems (http://www.zenofdesign.com/?p=704). This caused a lot of discussion on many fronts. A good summary can be found at Slashdot (http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl?...
[...] Les idées de Raph Koster sont de maničre générale trčs intéressantes. Je vous conseille vivement son blog: http://www.raphkoster.com IL a aussi écrit un bouquin qui n’est pas dénué d’intéręt. Ca fait un moment que je lis ce qu’il écrit et dit et je dois dire que je le trouve assez clairvoyant. Contrairement ŕ beaucoup de gens dans sa profession, il semble avoir une assez bonne notion commerciale globale.Je vous conseille vivement ses avis concernant WoW par exemple, c’est assez plein de vérité. Contrairement ŕ beaucoup d’autres il ne critique pas mais admet le succčs et l’explique tout en expliquant pourquoi il est possible et intéressant d’offrir autre chose.Je trouve qu’il pose de maničre générale les bonnes questions. Et c’est peut-ętre d’ailleurs ça la chose qui est appréciable avec lui. C’est quelqu’un qui questionne beaucoup et explique beaucoup sa façon d’arriver ŕ ses conclusions, trčs pédagogique en somme.Aprčs, on est d’accord ou pas, je pense que ça dépend de la façon de voir les MMOs mais pour ma part je le trouve beaucoup plus intelligent et clairvoyant que les mecs de SOE qu’on “entend” çŕ et lŕ. Quelques petites choses trčs intéressantes ŕ lire: Do classes suck?World of Warcrack panel Et beaucoup d’autres. pyrhum.net [...]
[...] Well I got into a discussion on the MMO boards about Class based (linear level progression) versus Skill based (modular character progression) games. How they work and why some fail. My whole thing was about how this discussion is old and is really about RPGs and not MMOs, though that was the focus of the discussion. Link to original topic. Link to my post on The Galaxy Report forum. Where I bring up my version on the class vs skill based systems. I thought that this might make an interesting topic. Talking about what we think has made the RPGs work and not work and what we as gamers look for in a game (as in level of complexity in character creation and management). [...]
[...] Interesting reads on classes vs. skills in MMORPGs. http://www.brokentoys.org/2006/08/24/ubiqs-a-classy-guy/ http://www.raphkoster.com/?p=660 http://www.nerfbat.com/?p=79 http://www.moorgard.com/?p=75 http://www.zenofdesign.com/?p=704 http://steve.madrogue.com/index.php/2006/08/24/mmorpg-classes/ http://weblog.probablynot.com/archives/2006/08/24/stay-classy/ [...]
[...] An hybrid system similar to what I have described would retain the advantages of classes that Raph pointed out as well (but not completely) the advantages of a skill-based system. And the concept of class adaptation and role switch would also address the other quirks about the “balance” (and “versatility”, which is a great strength in the eye of the players). [...]
[...] [...]
[...] one link and got engrossed in a dozen different blogs for about an hour. My favourite article was this one, which very neatly explains the differences between class- and skill-based game systems. (I’m [...]
[...] blog by Steve (Sierra Kilo) “Like School in the Summertime” – blog by Steve Danuser (Moorgard) “Do Classes Suck?” – by Raph Koster IMGDC Class vs. Skill Debate – Follow-up after a roundtable discussion [...]
[...] by Steve (Sierra Kilo)"Like School in the Summertime" – blog by Steve Danuser (Moorgard)"Do Classes Suck?" – by Raph KosterIMGDC Class vs. Skill Debate – Follow-up after a roundtable [...]
[...] I think I have liked most of the things I have heard and seen. Number one concern on my mind at the moment is probably the level & skill system or the restrictions on advancing in skills, to be more specific. I am pretty much all for free character advancement or at least free customization of your character (i.e no actual classes or such), but could live with a few restrictions (you can only be a Grandmaster on certain skill and Master on certain skill etc.). Player run governments, in-depth economics and all that sounds purely awesome and I can’t wait to experience them in action.So, you know, I approve. Continue. Heh.Edit: Here are some semi-interesting reads about classes vs. skill system (as in using a skill increases that specific skill) for all you peeps.http://www.zenofdesign.com/?p=704http://www.brokentoys.org/2006/08/24/ubiqs-a-classy-guy/http://weblog.probablynot.com/2006/08/24/stay-classy/http://www.nerfbat.com/?p=139http://steve.madrogue.com/index.php/2006/08/24/mmorpg-classes/http://www.moorgard.com/?p=75http://www.raphkoster.com/?p=660http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/707http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/ViewReply.asp?id=2968730 [...]
[...] been reading the debate on skills vs classes being revived again. Firstly, have a look at those blogs. They’re an interesting read, [...]
[...] by grimduck on 13 Nov 2007 10:54 http://www.cesspit.net/drupal/taxonomy/term/21http://www.zenofdesign.com/?p=704http://www.raphkoster.com/2006/08/28/do-classes-suck/ [...]