Cooking up Chemistry Kuhanje gore Kemija July 23rd, 2007 (Visited 3098 times) Tags: 23. srpanj 2007 (Posjećeno 3098 puta) Tags:

I finally got around to reading Dan Cook’s The Chemistry Of Game Design on Gamasutra. Napokon sam dobio oko za čitanje "Dan" Cook je kemija Game dizajn na Gamasutra. At the rate other folks are going, I won’t have to write “A Grammar of Gameplay.” Na tečaju drugih ljudi idu, neću morati pisati "gramatici igranja."

The skill chains he describes are, of course, basically the same as the game atoms I’ve been messing with, and very similar to the diagrams that Andrew McLennan & co. U vješto opisuje lance on se, naravno, u osnovi isti kao u igri atoma sam messing s, i vrlo slična je dijagrami koji Andrew McLennan & co. have been working on, and to Ben Cousins’ stuff, and so on. su raditi na, i Ben Cousins' stvari, i tako dalje. I tend to think that the reason we’re all saying roughly the same thing is because, well, this is kinda how it is. Ja obično mislim da je razlog smo svi govore otprilike istu stvar, jer je, dobro, to je kinda kako je to.

That said, one of the big gaps between my understanding of how this works and how Dan presents it is that the diagrams he presents seem to be largely linear; he uses the word “chains.” I (and Andrew, for that matter) tend to see these as nested. To je rekao, jedan od velike praznine između moje razumijevanje kako se to radi i kako predstavlja "Dan" je da je on dijagrama predstavlja Čini se da su uglavnom linearno, on koristi riječ "lanci." Sam (i Andrija, u tom slučaju) imaju tendenciju da vidim te kao ugniježdenih.

In my model, the atoms are nested pretty much indefinitely and arbitrarily. U mom modelu, atomi su uklopljeni je prilično neodređeno koliko i proizvoljno. In fact, you can have atoms that are presented in parallel to one another, atoms that are presented as chains, and atoms that are components of other atoms. Zapravo, možete imati atoma koji su u paralelno jednu s drugom, atoma koji se predstavio kao lanci i atoma koji su sastavni drugih atoma.

In Andrew’s case, there’sa bit more rigid a structure, where the analysis of components can be broken into distinct levels of depth. U slučaju Andrije, nalazi bitni više krutih strukturu, gdje je analizu komponente mogu biti slomljena u različita nivoa dubine. The most useful levels — indeed, the levels that can actually be quantified — are the ones dealing with (metaphorical) territory possession. Najkorisnija razinama - doista, na razinama koje mogu biti zapravo quantified - one se bave (metaforički) teritoriji u posjed.

At some point, someone needs to do a unification of all these approaches, plus the MDA and Salen/Zimmerman stuff. U nekom trenutku, netko treba napraviti ujedinjenje svih tih pristupa, zajedno s MDA i Salen / Zimmerman stvari. Now, if I could just find my notes for the next book… Sada, kad bih samo mogao pronaći moje bilješke za sljedeću knjigu ...

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15 Responses to “Cooking up Chemistry” Odgovori na 15 "Kuhačom se kemija"

1. Clickable Culture wrote on July 26th, 2007 at 7:15 am : Kliknuti Kultura pisao na 26. srpnja 2007 u 7:15 pm:

   [...] Raph’s Website » Cooking up Chemistry Commentary on Dan Cook’s “Chemistry of Game Design” article. [...] Raph's Web stranica »Kuhačom do kemiju Komentari na Danu Cook je" kemija Game Design "članak. The way Raph sees it, atoms aren’t necessarily linear chains, but nested “pretty much indefinitely and arbitrarily.” Also see work by Andrew McLennan and Ben Cousins. Na putu Raph vidi ga, atomi nisu nužno linearnih lanaca, ali umetnuta "prilično neodređeno koliko i proizvoljno." Također pogledajte rad Andrew McLennan i Ben Cousins. (tags: games design language commentary systems) [...] (tagovi: igre dizajn jezik komentar sustavi) [...]

2. links for 2007-07-26 : Metaverse Network wrote on July 26th, 2007 at 4:25 pm : linkovi za 2007-07-26: Metaverse Mreža pisao na 26. srpnja 2007 u 4:25 am:

   [...] Raph’s Website » Cooking up Chemistry Commentary on Dan Cook’s “Chemistry of Game Design” article. [...] Raph's Web stranica »Kuhačom do kemiju Komentari na Danu Cook je" kemija Game Design "članak. The way Raph sees it, atoms aren’t necessarily linear chains, but nested “pretty much indefinitely and arbitrarily.” Also see work by Andrew McLennan and Ben Cousins. Na putu Raph vidi ga, atomi nisu nužno linearnih lanaca, ali umetnuta "prilično neodređeno koliko i proizvoljno." Također pogledajte rad Andrew McLennan i Ben Cousins. (tags: games design language commentary systems) [...] (tagovi: igre dizajn jezik komentar sustavi) [...]

3. Raph’s Website » From the Mailbag: Where’s A Grammar of Gameplay? wrote on November 11th, 2008 at 2:18 pm : Raph's Web stranica »Od poštarska torba: Gdje je gramatici igranja? Pisao na 11. studeni 2008 u 2:18 am:

   [...] http://www.raphkoster.com/2007/07/23/cooking-up-chemistry/ [...] [...] Http://www.raphkoster.com/2007/07/23/cooking-up-chemistry/ [...]

1. Amaranthar said on July 24th, 2007 at 7:07 am : Amaranthar rekao je na 24. srpnja 2007 u 7:07 pm:

   We are still alchemists of our trade, mixing two parts impure story with one part polluted game play with three parts market voodoo. Mi smo još uvijek alchemists naše trgovine, miješanje dva dijela priča pomiješan s jedne strane zagađeno igru igrati s tri dijela tržišta vudu.

   Wonderful, absolutely fantastic quote. Divna, apsolutno fantastičan citat. This really strikes me. To stvarno udara mene. As a player, I wonder sometimes if the industry isn’t in danger of killing itself, and I wonder if this isn’t similar to whatever happened when roleplaying games appeared to die before the great revival in the last 10 years or so. Kao igrač, Pitam se ponekad, ako industrija nije u opasnosti ubijanje sebe, a ja čudo ako ovo nije bilo što slično se dogodilo kada RPG igre umrijeti prije nego što se pojavio veliki preporod u posljednjih 10 godina ili više.

2. Amaranthar said on July 24th, 2007 at 8:02 am : Amaranthar rekao je na 24. srpnja 2007 u 8:02 pm:

   Frustration through breaks in the skill chain, as in watching the MOB run away after you escape, and regain all it’s health points almost instantly. Frustracija kroz pauze u lanac vještina, kao na promatranje MOB pobjeći nakon što pobjegne, i ponovo sve je gotovo odmah bodove zdravlja. To me, this is a glaring example. Za mene, ovo je sjajan primjer.

   I always wondered why games don’t give players more game play through jumping, climbing, and other basic activities that players seem to really enjoy. Ja uvijek čudio zašto igara ne daje igračima više igrati igru preko skakanje, penjanje, i drugih osnovnih aktivnosti koje igrači izgledaju stvarno uživati. These things are just plain fun. To su samo običan zabavno. In WoW, you can jump. U WOW, možete skočiti. But the application falls short of where it could be. Ali primjena padne kratkom gdje bi mogao biti. The chain is broken. Lanac je slomljen. It stops at jumping over objects and up cliff sides. To zaustavlja na skakanje preko predmeta i stijena strane. Where are the tests of skill? Gdje su testove vještina?

   In the movie “The Golden Child”, Eddie Murphy has to jump from one stone pillar tp to another to get to the other side of the chasm, and once there he has to solve the riddle of the water and fire. U filmu "The Golden Child", Eddie Murphy je skok iz jednog kamenog stupa TP na drugu kako bi se s druge strane je provalija, i kada se on mora riješiti zagonetka od vode i vatre. Isn’t there some fun game play in something like this? Zar ne postoji neki zabavno igrati igru u nešto poput ovoga? And something I’ve always wanted to have, rooftop chases (or escapes) that depend on successfully not slipping, and jumping from one roof to another. I nešto sam uvijek htjela imati, rooftop chases (ili escapes) koje ovise o uspješno ne kliženje, i skakanje s jednog na drugi krov.

   Instead we have skill chains tightly controlled in level grinds. Umjesto toga imamo vještina lanaca čvrsto kontroliran u grinds razini. (Yawn) (Zjev)

3. Ola Fosheim Grøstad said on July 24th, 2007 at 9:02 am : Ola Fosheim Grøstad rekao je na 24. srpnja 2007 u 9:02 pm:

   Well, Meridian59 had some of that type of gameplay. Pa, Meridian59 imao nekih koji tip igre. (Ledges, timing jumps etc.) EQ did better in the marketplace though, so everybody went off and copied that instead… (Ledges, vrijeme skokova itd.) EQ nije bolje na tržištu ipak, tako da svatko ode van i umjesto da kopira ... I think M59 was overall a more varied and entertaining design than your typical DIKU, but it lacked a lot of finish and was to hardcore. Mislim M59 je sveukupno više raznolik i zabavan dizajn od tipičnih DIKU, ali nisu imali mnogo završiti i bio je hardcore. Finish matters, goes without saying. Završi pitanjima, ide bez govoreći.

4. Ola Fosheim Grøstad said on July 24th, 2007 at 9:03 am : Ola Fosheim Grøstad rekao je na 24. srpnja 2007 u 9:03 pm:

   (Well, I guess you can say EQ has some of that too.. Duh. Nevermind.) (Pa, mislim da vam mogu reći EQ ima nekih koji previše .. Duh. Nema veze.)

5. David Moles said on July 25th, 2007 at 1:49 am : David Moles, rekao je na 25. srpnja 2007 u 1:49 pm:

   Well, I for one stopped playing the updated Prince of Persia on XBLA once I realized I wasn’t any better at timing jumps now than back on my C64 when I was twelve. Pa, ja za jednu prestao igrati ažurirane Prince of Persia na XBLA jednom kada sam shvatio da je bolje ne na mjerenje vremena skokovima od sada natrag na moj C64 kad sam dvanaest. I think that kind of example probably goes a long way toward explaining why Blizzard didn’t make WoW require a lot of twitch skills. Mislim da je takav primjer vjerojatno ide dug put prema objašnjavanje zašto Mećava nije WOW zahtijevaju puno čupati vještine.

6. Michael Chui said on July 25th, 2007 at 4:02 am : Michael Chui rekao na 25. srpnja 2007 u 4:02 pm:

   Raph, would you terribly mind creating a webpage on this site linking to all the various grammar-type stuff you’ve found? Raph, bi li užasno umu kreiranje web stranice na ovoj stranici link na sve razne gramatika tipa stvari koje ste našao? It’d be a pain to slog through your old posts finding them, and not all of them were worth full commentary or whatnot… To mi se bol na teško putem svog starog komentara nalaz njih, i nisu svi od njih vrijedi puna komentar ili sitnica ...

   It’d be very nice to have a set of links. Bilo bi jako lijepo da ima niz linkova.

7. Michael Chui said on July 25th, 2007 at 4:09 am : Michael Chui, rekao je na 25. srpnja 2007 u 4:09 pm:

   Also, there were comments on the article: Također, tu su bili komentari na članak:
   http://lostgarden.com/2007/07/chemistry-of-game-design.html http://lostgarden.com/2007/07/chemistry-of-game-design.html

8. Danc said on July 25th, 2007 at 11:24 am : Danc rekao je na 25. srpnja 2007 u 11:24:

   A directed graph like the ones found in skill chains can easily represent nesting. A usmjereni graf poput one u lancima vještina može lako predstavljaju gnijezdo. Nesting, grouping, or encapsulation is usually a visual technique that might make certain complex graphs easier to read. Gnijezdo, grupiranje, ili ovijanje je obično vizualna tehnika koje bi mogle napraviti određene složene grafikone lakše za čitanje. Video effects program (or shader creation tools) do this all the time. Video efekti programa (ili Shader za kreiranje alata) to sve vrijeme. However, nesting doesn’t, at least for skill chains, alter the fundamental structure of the graph. Međutim, gnijezdo ne, barem na lančića vještina, promjene osnovnih struktura grafikona.

   A -> B -> C is the equivalent of A -> D where D = (B -> C). A -> B -> C je ekvivalent A -> D gdje je D = (B -> C).

   “Chains” as directed graphs are important because the structure captures the concept that players must learn basic skills before they learn complex skills. "Lanci" kao što su grafikoni usmjerena važno jer je struktura snima koncept koji igrači moraju naučiti osnovne vještine prije nego što su naučili složene vještine. You don’t immediately master a combo kill in Mortal combat. Ne odmah majstor jedan kombinirani ubiti u Mortal combat. First you need to learn how to press the buttons. Prvo morate naučiti kako pritisnite gumbe. This dependency has an important effect on burnout. Ova ovisnost ima važan utjecaj na izgaranje.

   It is fascinating to see these similar concepts bubbling up to the surface from multiple perspectives. To je fascinantno za vidjeti te sličnih pojmova bubbling do površine iz više perspektiva. Though my crystal ball is still fuzzy, work of this nature is going to a major impact on how game design is done in the future. Iako moja kristalna kugla je još uvijek nejasan, rad ove prirode je da odete na veliki utjecaj na igru kako se radi dizajn u budućnosti.

   take care brinuti
   Danc.

9. Charles Ellis said on July 25th, 2007 at 11:52 am : Karlo Ellis, rekao je na 25. srpnja 2007 u 11:52:

   I always wondered why games don’t give players more game play through jumping, climbing, and other basic activities that players seem to really enjoy. Ja uvijek čudio zašto igara ne daje igračima više igrati igru preko skakanje, penjanje, i drugih osnovnih aktivnosti koje igrači izgledaju stvarno uživati. These things are just plain fun. To su samo običan zabavno. In WoW, you can jump. U WOW, možete skočiti. But the application falls short of where it could be. Ali primjena padne kratkom gdje bi mogao biti. The chain is broken. Lanac je slomljen. It stops at jumping over objects and up cliff sides. To zaustavlja na skakanje preko predmeta i stijena strane. Where are the tests of skill? Gdje su testove vještina?

   It seems like every time a game has these platforming elements, regardless of genre, many people find it to be extremely frustrating. Čini se kao i svaki put igra je platforming ove elemente, bez obzira na žanr, mnogi ljudi smatraju da se vrlo frustrirajući. It may be partly due to the manner in which the jumping puzzles are implemented that makes them to harsh, but I think a lot of times our control possibilities are just not good enough. Svibanj To se djelomično s obzirom na način na koji je skakanje Zagonetke su implementirali da ih čini u otežanim, ali mislim da mnogo puta naše mogućnosti kontrole su samo ne dovoljno dobro.

   That said, many MMOs have “emergent” jumping gameplay, but it’s really up to the player to find it. To je rekao, mnogi su MMOs "pojavni" skakanje igrivost, ali stvarno do igrača da ga pronađu. Jumping up a mountain one vertex at a time to find a way underneath Stormwind is quite challenging, but it largely won’t gain you any advantages in game. Jumping gore planina jedan vrhunac na vrijeme pronaći put ispod Stormwind je prilično izazovan, ali je u velikoj mjeri neće steći bilo koji vam prednosti u igri. Likewise for using whatever jumping/hovering options are available to get on top of buildings. Isto tako za korištenje bez obzira na skakanje / lebdeći opcije dostupne su da se na vrhu zgrade. In fact, if you actually tried to gain some gameplay advantage from it, you’d probably be labeled a cheater. U stvari, ako zapravo pokušao da dobije neke igre prednost od njega, ti bi vjerojatno biti označene jedan cheater.

   As David mentioned, jumping puzzles require physical/twitch skills and do not fit in with the (MMO)RPG skillset, which is focused on character-management skills. Kao što je David spominje, skakanje zagonetke zahtijevaju fizičku / kidanje vještine i ne stane u sa (MMO) RPG skillset, koji je fokusiran na lik-menadžersku sposobnost. If you further add gameplay incentives to those jumping puzzles, it basically becomes a requirement, and many people who lack the skills (or are simply uninterested), will be annoyed that they have to do this to advance, or to reach parity with the best of their peers. Ako daljnja dodati igrivosti poticaje onima skakanje zagonetke, ona zapravo postaje uvjet, i mnogi ljudi koji nedostatak vještina (ili su jednostavno nezainteresiran), bit će annoyed da su za to da se unaprijed, odnosno do paritet s najboljim svojih vršnjaka. Probably the best solution would be to have these puzzles in there with no gameplay incentive (other than bragging rights), and let interested players go through them. Vjerojatno najbolje rješenje bi bilo da su ove zagonetke tamo, bez igrivosti poticaj (osim hvalisanje prava), i neka se zainteresirani igrači proći kroz njih. The number of people who would experience this gameplay vs. the time it would require to design and test the puzzles is probably not high enough, though. Broj ljudi koji će ovo iskustvo igranja protiv vremena da bi se zahtijevati da dizajn i test zagonetke vjerojatno nije dovoljno visok, iako.

10. Raph said on July 25th, 2007 at 12:59 pm : Raph rekao je na 25. srpnja 2007 u 12:59:

    Dan, I agree that a directed graph can represent nesting, but I think that seeing everything at only the individual skill atom level is misleading. Dan, slažem se da je usmjereni graf može predstavljati gnijezdo, ali mislim da vidim sve što je u samo pojedinačna vještina na razini atoma je zabludu. After all, when individual skill atoms are mastered, what starts happening is that higher-level ones get built out of the mastered components. Uostalom, kada pojedinačna vještina atoma su mastered, što počinje događa se da na najvišem nivou izgrađen iz one dobiti od mastered komponente. “You mastered jump… now solve jumping onto this particular ledge.” “You solved jumping onto high ledges. "Vi mastered skok ... sada riješiti skakanje na ovom obod." Vi riješeno skakanje na visokim ledges. No solve crossing this entire canyon.” And this eventually leads to “get across fifty canyons to rescue the princess.” Ne riješiti prijelaz cijelog kanjona. "I ovo na kraju vodi do" dobiti preko pedeset kanjona do spašavanja u princezu. "

    Each of these differing levels actually has exactly the same components and characteristics as your skill atoms. Svaka od tih različite razine zapravo je posve isti komponente i karakteristike kao svoju vještinu atoma. And in the way I see it, a skill atom decomposes into elements that are also skill atoms — just that the lowest level ones are interface actions like pressing a button. A na putu ga ja vidim, a vještina atom decomposes u elemente koji su također vješto atoma - samo da je najniža razina sučelja one su radnje poput pritiskom na gumb.

11. Danc said on July 26th, 2007 at 9:52 pm : Danc rekao je na 26. srpnja 2007 u 9:52 am:

    Ah, I see what you are getting at. Ah, ja vidim ono što su dobivanje na. In the skill chains, the atoms further down the chains are fed by skills from the previous atoms. U vještina lanci, atoma i dalje je vijence su hranjeni po vještine iz prethodnog atoma. This conveys the same info as explicit nesting. To conveys iste informacije kao i gnijezdo eksplicitna. I suspect this is just a very subtle difference in emphasis since we seem to be talking about similar concepts…just shown in slightly different ways. Ja se sumnja da je ovo samo vrlo suptilna razlika u naglaskom jer mi se čini da se govori o sličnim konceptima ... samo prikazan u neznatno različite načine.

    A directed graph ends up being a bit more flexible when a single atom feeds into multiple other higher level atoms. A usmjereni graf završi biti malo fleksibilniji kada jednog atoma feeds u više drugih višoj razini atoma. For example, jump might be used in both “crossing the canyon” and in “climbing the cloud tower” This seems to be a rather common structure. Na primjer, skok se mogu koristiti u oba "prijelaz kanjona" i "penjanje oblaka kula" Ovo se čini prilično zajedničke strukture.

    Strict nesting where a higher level atom contains all its component skills can get quite messy with many duplicated atoms if you show the contents all the time. Strogo gnijezdo gdje višoj razini atoma sadrži sve njegove komponente vještina mogu dobiti prilično zbrkan s mnogim umnožen atoma ako prikazati sadržaj svih vremena. The opposite problem is that if you don’t show the contents, it becomes harder to visualize the relationships and the ‘flow’ of mastery along the entire chain. U suprotnom problem je da ako ne prikazuj sadržaj, postaje teže zamišljati odnosa i 'tijek' i vještina Duž cijelog lanca.

    So much of this is ‘just’ visual information design. Toliko toga je 'samo' vizualne informacije dizajn. The bigger question ends up being “What is it important to show explicitly?” Što je veća završi se pitanje "Što je važno prikazati eksplicitno?"

    take care brinuti
    Danc.

12. Raph said on July 26th, 2007 at 11:16 pm : Raph rekao je na 26. srpnja 2007 u 11:16 sati:

    Yes, it’s definitely a question of info design. Da, to je svakako pitanje info dizajn. So in the skill chains, it proceeds from simple tasks and into complexity, because you are following the process from the mastery point of view. Tako je u umijeće lanci, ona polazi od jednostavne zadatke i na kompleksnost, jer ste nakon procesa od majstorstvo gledišta. I tend to think of it organizationally, I suppose, where you start graphing the game at the highest level, largest challenges, and decompose down until you reach the trivial challenges. Ja obično razmišljam o tome organizacije, Mislim da, gdje ćete početi graphing igra na najvišoj razini, najveći izazovi, a raspadati se dolje sve dok ne dosegnete trivijalan izazove.

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  • game girl advance igra djevojku unaprijed
  • Grand Text Auto Grand Auto tekst
  • Jesper Juul Jesper Juul
  • Ludology.org Ludology.org
  • Nick Yee/Daedalus Project Nick Yee / Daedalus projekta
  • Notes on Game Dev Napomene o igri dev
  • Patrick Dugan Patrick Dugan
  • Terra Nova Terra Nova

• Comics Stripovi

  • Clan of the Cats Clan od Cats
  • College Roomies from Hell College Roomies from Hell
  • Kevin & Kell Kevin & Kell
  • Penny Arcade Penny Arcade
  • PvP Online PvP Online
  • Real Life Real Life

• Game devs Game devs

  • Chris Melissinos Chris Melissinos
  • Clint Hocking Clint Hocking
  • Gamasutra Gamasutra
  • GameProducer.Net GameProducer.Net
  • Greg Costikyan Greg Costikyan
  • Ian Bogost Ian Bogost
  • IGDA IGDA
  • Jason Della Rocca Jazon della Rocca
  • Jeff Ward Jeff Ward
  • Jim Purbrick Jim Purbrick
  • Jurie Horneman Jurie Horneman
  • Kim Pallister Kim Pallister
  • Lost Garden Lost Vrt
  • Patrick Curry Patrick Curry
  • Rob ‘Xemu’ Fermier Rob 'Xemu' Fermier
  • Robin Hunicke Robin Hunicke
  • Ron Gilbert Ron Gilbert
  • Scott Miller Scott Miller
  • Steven Gabriel Steven Gabriel

• MMO devs MMO devs

  • Alan Crosby Alan Crosby
  • Ben Zeigler Ben Zeigler
  • Brandon Reinhart Brandon Reinhart
  • Brian Green Brian Green
  • Damion Schubert Damion Schubert
  • Dan Rubenfield Danova Rubenfield
  • Daniel James Daniel James
  • Dave Kennerly Dave Kennerly
  • Joe Ludwig’s Blog Ludwig Joe's blog
  • Kira Snyder Kira Snyder
  • Massively Multi-Player Game Development Masivno multi-player igri razvoj
  • Matt Mihaly Matt Mihaly
  • Nerfbat Nerfbat
  • Oliver Smith Oliver Smith
  • Randy Farmer Randy Farmer
  • Richard Bartle Richard Bartle
  • Sara Jensen Sara Jensen
  • Scott Jennings Scott Jennings
  • Steve Danuser Steve Danuser
  • Steven Davis Steven Davis
  • Tess Snider Tess Snider

• News/Forums Vijesti / Forum

  • f13 f13
  • Quarter To Three Forums Kvartal do tri forumi
  • Slashdot Games Slashdot Igre
  • The Corporation The Corporation
  • The Escapist The Escapist

• Other Drugi

  • BoingBoing BoingBoing
  • Bruce Sterling Bruce Sterling
  • Cory Doctorow Cory Doctorow
  • David Brin David Brin
  • Locus Online Locus Online
  • Neil Gaiman Neil Gaiman
  • reBang weblog reBang Weblog
  • Susan Wu Susan Wu

• Players Igrači

  • Adam McDonald Adam McDonald
  • Aggro Me Aggro Me
  • Damned Vulpine Damned lukav
  • n3rfed n3rfed
  • The Cesspit U Septička jama
  • Tobold Tobold
  • Van Hemlock Van otrov
  • Wonderland Wonderland
  • Yehuda Berlinger Yehuda Berlinger