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By N2H
Welcome to Raph Koster's personal website: MMOs, gaming, writing, art, music, books.

The SL cultural gap

December 13th, 2006

Reading recent discussions here and on TerraNova with Prokofy and other SL users, as well as this post over at in The Grid prompts me to some thoughts on the “culture gap” between SL and the rest of the MMOsphere.


In the Grid suggests that

It’s no secret, of course, that the Linden Lab staff gets irked when people refer to Second Life as a ‘game,’ and so do a lot of long-time residents; maybe what this chart is revealing, then, is that the rest of the MMO community is finally catching on to this, and deliberately placing them outside of the traditional gaming sphere of conversation. This is not necessarily a bad thing, I think; most would agree, I believe, that Second Life is an utterly different experience than most of these online videogames, while the games themselves are mostly better/worse variations on each other. Perhaps ten years from now, we’ll see yet another web just as strong as complex as this gaming one, but with Second Life at its center and the subject of MMO as a communications platform being its unifying theme. Or, hmm, maybe we’d actually see such a web now, if Second Life were to be placed in the middle of a new Google Touch Graph. Anyone out there want to try it and send me a screenshot of the result? I’ll definitely post it as an update if someone does.

Which I don’t agree with. I mean, even the premise that SL is “an utterly different experience” feels wrong to me, given that the currents of social and user-content-based worlds are far far more intertwined than that, historically and likely into the future. (Uh, hello, Cory Ondrejka used to make arcade games).

So I see it as an interesting take on what the graph means. As someone who visits both worlds regularly, I can tell you that for all the disdain that many of the gamers have for SL, they still TALK about it all the time, with in fact as much discussion going towards SL as towards, say, Pirates of the Burning Sea, or D&D Online.

Whereas I think the opposite is not true. As an example, CopyBot discussions happened aplenty on places in the center of the graph, and folks who run may of those central sites jumped in on the comments elsewhere: people from my site, TerraNova, Broken Toys, f13, Psychochild, Zen of Design, to name just a few, all participated. I rarely see something from the SL cluster point back. Where’s the discussion on the ramifications of Eve Online happening within the SLogosphere, of the Leeroy Jenkins meme, of whether Entropia is a scam or a brave experiment?

If anything, this reinforces for me a certain insularity that exists; as a whole, the community of SL tends to see SL as highly exceptional, whereas those within the larger cluster don’t. I think in general they see it as part of a tradition that includes AlphaWorld, OnLive Traveller, Cybertown, Habitat, LambdaMOO, and many others. This (and the emphasis on “non-game” and “evil tekkies” and whatnot) has resulted in strange cultural gaps. I worry a bit that the fact that SL as a community largely talks to itself and (yes) the Web 2.0 techie crowd is causing it to become a bit more insular that it ought to be.

There is no doubt that the gaming world, as you point out, could benefit hugely by embracing more of the SL way of doing things as regards UCC; however, the PRIMARY lessons that SL seems to fail to absorb are ones that severely stunt its acceptance: instant enjoyability, guiding users, rewarding experiences on a regular basis, obvious interfaces, a premium on seamlessness (no lag, no disruptions, etc). if I had to pick which side would benefit more from a cultural exchange, there is zero doubt in my mind that it’s the SL side.

Over on Second Thoughts, Prokofy’s post about Why the Geeks Got To Go throws this culture gap into sharp relief.

In the discussion of the blogosphere graph, I pointed out neighborhoods that are webbed together but nonetheless clearly visible. You can trace a path easily from pure gamer sites through devs to game studies folks or serious games people; had I left in the mainstream gaming world (consoles and so on) almost any MMO blog would be two hops away from sites ranging from political activism to digital art to general technology news. The central web is far from a monolithic community — it’s tightly webbed, but it is very diverse, even in this highly reduced graph. It also has a ton of institutional knowledge and history.

When I look at SL itself, what jumps into stark relief lately is this whole “techie versus users” thing, this sense that there is an inherent culture clash within the system itself between the techies who made SL and the people who are creationing business, emotional connections and so on within SL. Make no mistake, SL is far far more on the techie side of life than the entire central clump in the MMO blogosphere graph. It is born out of techie ideals, it derives its press from techie sources, and its early adopters are far more geeky techie than the average MMO game player.

Now, their users now aren’t, it’s been pointed out to me several times. This means, to me, that the culture gap between the game MMO sphere and the SL citizens is really not as big as it seems.

Hell, the gap between the MMO devs and the SL devs is probably bigger. Why? Because the games are not made to fulfill some lofty technical ideal or some cyberlaw-based philosophy or grand technolibertarian governmental ideals. They are made for mass market entertainment, and as such, they tend not to bother playing around in what they regard as useless intellectual masturbation. They’ll be happy to watch SL, like many other ventures into user content creation, get arrows in the back, and then adopt the smallest, most constrained set of features from it in the slickest and most mass market way possible.

Consider this quote from Prokofy’s post:

for young people, or newly-enabled and tekkified old people, especially women and non-Americans who have taken to SL by leaps and bounds, these old fuddy-duddy concerns like “skepticism triggered by the historical failure of things like LambdaMOO or VRML” don’t compute. What the hell is LambadaMOO? I never heard of it until I branched out from SL into geek-world; I’m certain I wouldn’t recognize VRML if it bit me in the ass; but I have a full and engaging Second Life.

Taken in isolation, this reads like someone who has stars in their eyes so big they cannot see around them. Now, I know that in aggregate, Prokofy’s opinions are more nuanced and sophisticated than that. But I do wonder if the lack of connections to the rest of the ongoing discussion is a big part of the problem. Because the game folks have zero trouble or cultural issues referencing anything from MUD1 to PLATO, Medievia to TinyTIM, The Realm to Blaxxun. Plenty of people had full and engaging virtual lives in Cybertown or WorldsAway or even The Palace — if not on a commercial level, at the least on an emotional level. And much of the point that Prokofy is trying to make about virtual property rests on the emotional value, not the economic value.

Prokofy points out that

The geeks of Web. 1.0 once shook their heads that their bosses and leaders didn’t use email; today we who use email, too, shake our heads that they don’t get the value of a 3-D life online. But fortunately, increasingly, we’ll be making do without them and their purchasing decisions and their gate-keeping and barrier functions. Thank God, there are no more webmasters; everybody can be a webmaster.

But that’s not how it’s actually happened. Email was adopted, but remained in continuous use, and folks who helped define its initial protocols are still active contributors to tech today. I think we can expect history to keep being an ongoing tapestry, honestly, and that means that the geeks won’t be superseded because they are being built on. Regarding SL or anything else as exceptional in this absolutist manner means not examining the foundations on which you are building. (And I can tell you for a fact that the SL management and development team certainly knows their virtual world history).

At the recent Project Horseshoe, the working group on online ended up asserting that

Generally, our problems all fall into the very broad category of Institutionalized Hubris and Ignorance. We do not share knowledge, and we are not very open to knowledge that others try to share. Culturally, we all need to open ourselves up to actually learning from the mistakes of others. Practically, however, we need to begin by solidifying, clarifying and then sharing our hard-learned lessons.

(Expect the working group’s report to be posted in the next day or so, by the way. I will link it here when it goes up).

Most critically, this leads to people who ought to be pulling in the same direction instead pulling against each other. This shows up very specifically in the disdain we see flowing in both directions.

(In particular, though, it rankles me a bit to be lumped in as a techie elistist by Prok in this latest post. I don’t think of Clay Shirky as being particularly on the techie side either. Not all tech-savvy people are cut from the same cloth. In this essay Prok conflates several different points of view and lumps them all together under “tekkie.” Copyleft is a separate issue from atomicity, which is a separate issue from property, which is a separate issue from community, which is a separate issue from hype. And it is possible to have nuanced opinions about each of these issues individually.)

As I said in a comment on that post:

Frankly, many of the comments sound… well, parochial. They are so absolutely centered in just one way of doing things, when there is not yet One True Way for online worlds. I don’t mean that as a slam; I’m just trying to point out that you seem to be implying that you & others “get it” while those who have been working hard in this field for years to decades and who are trying to point out some of the pitfalls “don’t get it.” Frankly, that’s silly and shortsighted. Everything you have said about emotional connection, frontiers, bringing in the common people — every word of it is something that I, and others have said already. We’re ON YOUR SIDE on this, but also have been around long enough to be able to point out some of the realities.

I hope you and those like you CAN walk around those pitfalls like they weren’t there. But I guarantee that five years from now, you’ll look back and say “damn — look at those huge pitfalls — we didn’t even notice, but it’s a good thing we walked left in the darkness right then.”

It is entirely possible to agree with Prokofy that the emotional connection to an object or entity in a virtual world grants a certain type of reality to it whilst also saying that under the logic of code AND law, they have no ownership stake in it whatsoever. And it’s not, as Prokofy says, “backsliding.” It’s about complex issues that have multiple angles from which to view the same thing.

*

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  1. alecaustin: More notes on Second Life wrote on

    [...] Alec Austin (alecaustin) wrote,@ 2006-12-13 14:55:00      Entry tags:c3, mmogs, second life More notes on Second Life Raph Koster’s got a lot to say about the culture gap between MMOGs and Second Life, and most of it sounds about right to me. The UI concerns that he brings up are probably going to be one of the centerpieces of my research production for next semester.(Post a new comment) [...]

  2. SLOz - Australia’s Second Life News Source » Are SL users ethnocentric? wrote on

    [...] A fascinating discussion on SL as one of many multiplayer experiences can be found at raphkoster.com - if you’re interested in sociology (and who wouldn’t be!) then have a read through. The premise of the article is that SL residents could perhaps learn a lot of useful lessons from other MMOs. [...]

  3. Zen of Design»Blog Archive » Another MMO Announcement Imminent wrote on

    [...] Buried in the comments on Yet Another Second Life Post on Raph’s blog, Raph says the following: I am glad you think of me as enlightened. We will be announcing our startup in the next couple of days, and when we do, believe it or not, I hope you’re among those who are interested. [...]

  4. Sierra Kilo » From the Horse’s Mouth wrote on

    [...] Raph Koster said (here and here) he will announce his new studio soon. I’m not exactly sure where he’s living nowadays (California or Texas?), but this should be interesting to watch. I half expected him to get snatched up by one of the new studios (BioWare Austin, Green Monster Games, etc), but there’s something to be said for being your own boss I do expect to see games where you have to apply a little brainpower. No straight hack-and-slash from Raph. Maybe an MMOBFS (Massively Multiplayer Online Bird Flight Simulator)? [...]

  5. Second Life Herald: More Worlds! wrote on

    [...] Suddenly, all that time Raph has been labouring talking to gamers and Infamous Antagonists on his blog seems to make sense — if a new and different thing and better thing will come out of it. An interesting discussion on whether games or worlds are better is going on here. [...]

  6. Друзья wrote on

    [...] Previous 20 Вт, 19 Дек, 2006, 01:41 yettergjart: Давно мы фигнёй не занимались Your Birthdate: July 31You don’t love lightly. For you, love is always a serious undertaking.However, you are able to love many types of people. You can bring out the best in almost anyone.Love surprises you often. You never know when or where you’ll find it next.Number of True Loves You’ll Have: 2Number of Times You’ll Have Your Heart Broken: 1You are most compatible with people born on the 4th, 13th, 22nd, and 31st of the month.What Does Your Birth Date Mean For Your Love Life?via opposto Tags: фигня ссылка Оставить комментарийВт, 19 Дек, 2006, 00:37 iten: Мне бы в небо. После воскресного разговора мне запала в голову одна мысль, от которой я никак не могу освободиться. Pigbig сказала о конкретном человеке, о том, что этот человек пытался «прыгнуть» в другой социальный класс, но не довёл дело до конца, не смог. Я слушал и думал о себе: о том, к какой страте я принадлежу, о том, был ли у меня такой прыжок. О родителях я уже писал – у них было образование, но их жизнь совершенно не была связана с академической средой или чем-то подобным. Получается, что я, отучившись в университете и аспирантуре, связавшись с работой в университете, вроде как поднялся на социальном лифте немного повыше. Хотя это моё ощущение можно вполне оспорить: в нынешнем обществе столько разных систем иерархий, что мой путь наверх вполне может быть сведён к нулю, в силу невозможности сравнить позиции. Опять же, этот мой путь не был продуманным шагом: я получил образование, а потом устроился на работу в соответствии с квалификацией, не думая при этом о том, что так я приобретаю какой-то неведомый статус или избавляюсь от «проклятия» социального происхождения. Правда, мне иногда приятно было думать о том, что я поступил в университет, а некоторые из тех, с кем я учился в школе, не поступили и, в полном соответствии с законом социальной преемственности, отправились, допустим, на завод. Всё же я могу сказать, что мой статус стал немного выше, мои занятия более интеллектуальны, диапазон разговора шире. Однако, вот что меня заботит: насколько я действительно вписан в ту среду, в которой я сейчас нахожусь, насколько я согласен примерить на себя какие-то достижительные маркеры, вроде «защиты диссертации», насколько я не плебей? Я ведь чувствую собственную планку, чувствую отсутствие того, что можно обозначить тривиальной метафорой английского газона, за которым ухаживали целую кучу лет: я вырос среди книг, но это скорее случайность, чем закономерность, и я не являюсь результатом тщательного воспитания в определённом духе. Может, я тоже плохо и неудачно прыгнул? Для меня это очень интересный вопрос: однажды, в компании, мы спорили до крика о том, может ли человек преодолеть ту социальную среду, в которой он вырос. Музыка: Дэвид Боуи Jump, they say ссылка Оставить комментарий | 1 комментарийВт, 19 Дек, 2006, 01:25 a_k_e_l_a: Тоскливое Иногда очень хочется свернуться калачиком у кого-нибудь на коленях. Чтобы гладили по головке, перебирали спутанные волосы на затылке и нежно шептали на ушко, что меня любят и что все обязательно будет хорошо. И пообещали купить петушка на палочке. Осталось найти такие невъебенные колени, на которых я бы поместилась.Нет в жизни совершенства.ссылка Оставить комментарий | 2 комментарияВт, 19 Дек, 2006, 00:27 d_a_p: Aerae Интересный пост о SL и похожих разработках.Анализ интернетных сообществ с точки зрения разработчика.( Автор поста Raph Koster сам недавно открыл Start-Up Aerae)Особенно мне понравился вот этот граф расползания новостей по блогам :) Tags: nosup, sl ссылка Оставить комментарийВт, 19 Дек, 2006, 01:21 yettergjart: Оправдание рутины Обменявшись с aletehia репликами о свободе и рутине (http://yettergjart.livejournal.com/156798.html?thread=1630334#t1630334 ), я подумала о том, что только недавно - на своём сорок втором году - начала как следует чувствовать огромный освобождающий потенциал так называемой «рутины»: повторяющегося, автоматического… Устойчивого и защищающего в мире вообще так мало, что по-настоящему перевести дух можно только внутри того, что делается и повторяется якобы “само собой”. И ДУМАЕТСЯ в этом - причём о самых общих и отвлечённых вещах - великолепно. «Рутина» прекрасно освобождает нас от всего, что не-она, - надевает на нас эдакий защитный футляр. Именно внутри такой защитной конструкции и разворачивается самое разнузданное внутреннее разнообразие!! Честное слово.На самом деле удивительно, как с течением времени начинает восприниматься в качестве надёжного источника свободы то, что в начале жизни ничем, кроме окаянного закрепощения, не казалось. Рутина. Работа. Жёсткое расписание. Сидение дома (в противоположность (а) странствиям, (б) хождением по гостям и вообще (в) разговорам. Тот же возраст. А сегодня у меня очень остро и ясно переживалась мысль об освобождающем потенциале – самом, наверно, большом и надёжном из освобождающих потенциалов – неизбежной смерти. Tags: выращивание свободы, из разговоров с френдами, оправдания ссылка Оставить комментарийВт, 19 Дек, 2006, 00:25 eigi: Пеку рождественские пирожные. Опять начался мой крестный глазурный путь.ссылка Оставить комментарийВт, 19 Дек, 2006, 01:19 jekfat: Новое слово Мой коллега - шеф-редактор детской программы - сегодня заметил, что у нас в стране с детьми работают либо педофилы, либо педофобы.Второй термин пришелся по вкусу многим, работающим с детьми на ТВ. Tags: ТВ, дети, работаCurrent Location: Москва, дом ссылка Оставить комментарийВт, 19 Дек, 2006, 01:26 another_kashin: Из переписки с читателями ссылка Оставить комментарий | 7 комментариевВт, 19 Дек, 2006, 01:20 francinemarine: Три слова ( Original Soundtrack Shrek ) Настроение: indifferent Музыка: Rufus Wainwright Hallelujah ссылка Оставить комментарийВт, 19 Дек, 2006, 01:13 alexclear: Макс, с днем рождения!ссылка Оставить комментарий | 2 комментарияВт, 19 Дек, 2006, 01:14 yettergjart: О незащищённости …чувствую я, человек вообще – новичок в мире, сколько бы ни прожил. Ох как прав поэтому мой френд nemo_ru, сказавший недавно (http://yettergjart.livejournal.com/155935.html?thread=1628959#t1628959 ), что в опыте есть что-то успокоительное. Есть, конечно: всякий опыт (глубоко и неизбежно случайный по самой своей природе) создаёт нам видимость опор, видимость надёжности – видимость очевидности. Tags: из разговоров с френдами, экзистенциальное ссылка Оставить комментарийВт, 19 Дек, 2006, 01:03 sali_revised: пока привезут макароны Первое место уже больше года таки удерживает комбинация циниковские чесночные гренки + Массандра. За второе готов поспорить альянс щупалец осьминога с Джеком Дэниэлсом. Единственное, что обидно — как бы ни стремился к культурному росту, а все равно идти за активированным углем.ссылка Оставить комментарий | 2 комментарияВт, 19 Дек, 2006, 00:53 im_foto: Ещё немного и слово “контакт” исчезнетбудет: индекс-принтв 70_ые Ральф Гибсон издал книгу “Контакты”, где на разворотах слева на вылет были контакты, а справа Фотографии, можно было следить за “мыслью” и почерком, почти сотни ФотографовЕсть контакты (или вернее негативы) с которыми не работалиа выбросить вроде жальСССР, Москва 1985(м.б. 1986) “Коррозия Металла”: Паук, Сакс, Боров и др.(+ Миша Молочников!) Tags: архив, рок ссылка Оставить комментарий | 2 комментарияВт, 19 Дек, 2006, 00:55 alexclear: В комментарияхЛОХИ И НИЩЕБРОДЫ.ссылку надыбал на топе blogs.yandex.ruссылка Оставить комментарий | 14 комментариевВт, 19 Дек, 2006, 00:19 a_k_e_l_a: О работе и государстве Во-первых, о работе. Нахамила шефу. И не терзають меня совести угрызения. Вот совсем и не терзають. Дело было так - в очередной раз заученным и заунывным тоном поинтересовалась у начальства, а как, собственно, обстоят дела с перерегистрацией любимой организации (ебись она конем!). Дела, разумеется, не обстояли никак, как, впрочем, и 1,5 года назад. И тут шеф выдает фразу на-гора:- А когда, собственно, ты сможешь подключиться к процессу полноценно, а не сидя дома?- ??????- Ну, когда ты сможешь выезжать? (Интересно, ребенка, подразумевается, я должна таскать с собой или куда его девать?)- А какой процесс ты имеешь в виду?- Ну… перерегистрацию.Стервенею. Все понятно - в очередной раз пытаемся спихнуть свои обязанности на меня.- Вообще-то, перерегистрация организации не входит в обязанности главного бухгалтера.- Не входит.- Впрочем, я готова хоть сейчас. Но - за дополнительную плату.В ответ - тишина и озадаченный шефов взор, полный бессильной ярости. И нехуй! ( Во-вторых, о государстве. ) Tags: Политика ссылка Оставить комментарий | 6 комментариевВт, 19 Дек, 2006, 03:46 samir74: Москали сегодня акцию провели на Мете - человек 15 новых голосов голоснуло, потоки ругани, все такое. Закидали мету антиукраинскими, антирумынскими и антисибирскими агитками.Эта ночь - черная луна, наибольшая активность сил зла. Так что неудивительно, что бесы в них именно сегодня так забегали, и их на очередное сатанинское дело потянуло.ссылка Оставить комментарий | 5 комментариевПн, 18 Дек, 2006, 15:46 piony: [...]

  7. egmg: интересно, wrote on

    [...] умные тексты. Ударение на слове длинные :)(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) egmg 2006-12-18 10:38 pm UTC (link) 2ое и 3ье не существенно, носложнее. Я не слышала про не-резидентов.(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) d_a_p 2006-12-18 10:46 pm UTC (link) Да, с Магистерской быстро неесть Латвийское гр-во тоже, это что то меняет ?(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) egmg 2006-12-18 10:51 pm UTC (link) ну просто на магистрантов,вариант. Ну или искать где-то самому грант.(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread) d_a_p 2006-12-18 11:01 pm UTC (link) Ясно, здесь та же петрушкаto this) (Parent) (Thread) egmg 2006-12-18 11:04 pm UTC (link) мне жаль, я бы Вас приняла сto this) (Parent) (Thread) d_a_p 2006-12-18 11:08 pm UTC (link) Ну хорошо, буду считать себясильно в жизни помогает, но чем-то приятно :)(Reply to this) (Parent) d_a_p 2006-12-18 11:11 pm UTC (link) Думаю, Вам надо сюдаstudying aspects.http://www.raphkoster.com/2006/12/13/the-sl-cultural-gap/#more-869(Reply to this) (Parent) (Read comments)- [...]

  8. Elapsed Time: Worthy of Debate wrote on

    [...] Amid the increasing chatter as to whether Second Life is hype or substance, the centrally satisfying aspect (at least to me) is that it’s worthy of debate by smart folks. As the service signs up resident #2,000,000 (w/ likely 500,000 of those active users), here are a few thoughts on the press, SL’s growth and its future.1) Hype can either be the result of willful misleading disinformation or expectation outstripping reality. Second Life is a firm case of the latter. A reporter listens to Philip’s vision, sees examples of some really amazing stuff in world and gets excited about the possibility. People are hopeful, they love the idea of a user-created world filled with meaning. They imagine what they would do in such a space. They write a glowing article. But what they describe isn’t always what SL is today, it’s what they imagine it could be. No different from its residents, whom i’d suggest are 20% there for what SL is today, 80% for what it could become.2) The press cycle is being driven by folks outside of SL. Bloggers, companies, media are the ones driving this story, not Second Life. Well, with the exception that Philip seems to really like speaking at conferences. That being said, I think SL hasn’t managed their messaging optimally and have been too willing to sell into the froth. Philip needs to add this statement to every interview and speech he does:”The growth is really exciting but Second Life is a hundred year project to build a virtual world.”This perspective and sense of timeline would give a needed credibility boost to the nature of this project. And it’s not inconsistent with how other CEOs handle similar situations. Eric Schmidt at Google has said it will take 300 years for Google to accomplish its mission. It sounds noble and cognizant of the challenges which remain. A humble stroke that Linden’s press sometimes leaves out.Oh yeah, and stop the “walk your avatar to the virtual Amazon store” idea. It reminds me of the folks who suggest the avatar should walk to the mailbox to pick up email.3) Fix the search and UI. Two of the most important aspects of the user experience - the UI and search - are just begging for revamping. You could probably double retention rates if these were improved. The UI was originally designed by James Cook, one of the smartest folks I know, but its crying out for a wholesale rethink.4) N+1. I used to tell Philip we needed to design for the N+1 user — what could we do to the product which would continue expanding the reach. While the world has certainly grown, at times it would appear that the team is still developing for the same user type, believing more and more average consumers will evolve to demonstrate those characteristics.Raph Koster had an interesting post on the SL cultural gap which reflects how SL doesn’t listen so much to ideas from outside of its world. In some ways this is what has allowed SL to be successful - if Philip, Cory and others had listened to all the skeptics in 2000-2004 SL would have evolved into something like 3d parlor games accompanied by avatar chat. As a strong-willed founder who believes in his vision, Philip is going to follow the path he believes in right. And the degree to which it is correct will always be the greatest determining factor in SL’s success.Labels: secondlife [...]

  9. Post Comment wrote on

    [...] Долбозлобъ (d_a_p) wrote,@ 2006-12-19 00:27:00      Aerae Интересный пост о SL и похожих разработках.Анализ интернетных сообществ с точки зрения разработчика.( Автор поста Raph Koster сам недавно открыл Start-Up Aerae)Особенно мне понравился вот этот граф расползания новостей по блогам :)(Read comments)Post a comment in response: From:Anonymous OpenID Identity URL:  Log in?  LiveJournal user Username:Password:Log in?  Subject: [...]

  10. Terra Nova wrote on

    Terra Nova and its centrality in that game sphere map resurfaced on Raph Koster’s blog. This time embedded within a substantial essay suggesting that Second Lifers are insulated from the broader MMO tradition. It is a nuanced essay that deserves reading and comment there. If I had to abbreviate the point, however, I would choose this passage:

  11. Friends wrote on

    [...] Link | Leave a comment | Add to MemoriesRandom linkiesDec. 23rd, 2006 | 08:36 pmposted by: _mikeAwesome graph at Yglesias’s. Agree, disagree, ignore his commentary, it doesn’t matter; but it is the quintessential political graph.Raph Koster griping about Second Life’s insularity (from TN). One of the reasons I don’t read TN as much as I ought is the interminable tiresome debate about just how different SL is from everything else that’s ever happened ever–for a while Richard Bartle would lay the “we resolved that one ten years ago on MUD-DEV” smackdown on anyone who didn’t show enough history, but he’s apparently distracted or gotten bored of that one.And… oh, yeah: on the MMO shop talk front, Three Rings is getting new office space, which is damned neat. Dunno how effective it actually is as a space to work in, but it’s fun to look at, at least. (and they’ve got a flagship product and associated theme, which makes it easier. to say nothing of whole-heartedly embracing schtick.)Tags: games, mmo, politics [...]

  12. Zen of Design»Blog Archive » When 10 Hours Is Not Enough To Appreciate True Awesomeness wrote on

    [...] This guy was a loser because he didn’t mystically know which ‘essential’ add-ons make the game usable. At this point, it seems useful to point out Raph’s post where he essentially described those who talk about Second Life as insular and detached from reality. [...]

  13. MMODump.com » When 10 Hours Is Not Enough To Appreciate True Awesomeness wrote on

    [...] This guy was a loser because he didn’t mystically know which ‘essential’ add-ons make the game usable. At this point, it seems useful to point out Raph’s post where he essentially described those who talk about Second Life as insular and detached from reality. [...]

  14. Zen of Design wrote on

    applications (as here, here, or here) which do offer some interoperability between Web and world. This guy was a loser because he didn’t mystically know which ‘essential’ add-ons make the game usable. At this point, it seems useful to point out Raph’s post where he essentially described those who talk about Second Life as insular and detached from reality. Second Life is a good idea that is hampered by overwhelmingly complex UI, an utter lack of direction, and movement that feels like wading through

  15. Terra Nova wrote on

    Penguins and Puffins Nate Combs Terra Nova and its centrality in that game sphere map resurfaced on Raph Koster’s blog. This time embedded within a substantial essay suggesting that Second Lifers are insulated from the broader MMO tradition. Continue reading “Penguins and Puffins” December 23, 2006 | Permalink | Comments (30)

Reader Comments
  1. Michelle Readman said on

    however, the PRIMARY lessons that SL seems to fail to absorb are ones that severely stunt its acceptance: instant enjoyability, guiding users, rewarding experiences on a regular basis, obvious interfaces, a premium on seamlessness (no lag, no disruptions, etc). if I had to pick which side would benefit more from a cultural exchange, there is zero doubt in my mind that it’s the SL side.

    I actually intended to make a reply about such things in response to your ‘jam’ post. A good jam doesn’t kick off without any music, someone sets the tone for the event. But if that person has their own personal sound guy with them mixing and doing effects, it ruins the jam.

    Similarly with all games, there is a spectrum of world-setting. You can start with an almost blank slate, like 1000 blank white cards or Second Life, allowing amazing freedom but requiring great investment and potentially putting people off until the next jam if they don’t like the feel. You can start with a vague world description and let players explore the concept. You can provide a strict world which players become fearful of altering (DnD forgotten realms crpgs? :P). Or you can provide a strong setting, then give players the means to make it their own (the UO RP croud is still very strong).

    Second Life didn’t like the idea of priming the world, in the manner that more typical virtual worlds would do. And what has now emerged is frankly off-putting to those of us who look in from the rest of the MMOG player scene. Whilst RP OOC politics is annoying, there is at least a game to many other virtual worlds, whilst second life’s game often seems to me to be politics and money making, much like the web itself. I registered for an account, but I’ve just not felt like putting the effort in I’d need to in order to make something of that jam session.

    Sorry, that turned into a bit of a rant about SL.

    That said, I still keep an eye on SL, and I know it’s developments are important for the VW industry. The adiction to microtransactions, the SLEX, the UCC rules, even the ToS blogsphere discussions and technology talks. I see aspects that can be used in further game models, means to make a living, and useful social experiements. I might even use that account one day to look around, as the actual experience of playing is a vitial one to true understanding. I actually see a fair few people outside of SL discuss similar things, I’ve seen such things appear on forums from time to time.

    My walk through the SL blogsphere reveals that, as you say, the SL community does feel quite different. Part of me suspects that a lot of this is related to the problems that a lack of world priming has allowed.

    Even in the most stratified of cases, most other MMOGs with strong world priming tend to still have a somewhat united playerbase. PvPers may hate PvMers and vice versa, but they still will agree on a few things, and come to understand the value in eachother. This also applies to worlds where players can build the world, but the world started off with such a strong primer that people built upon rather than worked around.

    Second Life, however, does seem to have a number of distinct, non-meshing player groups within it:
    There are the furries, who need little more than a means to talk to create their fun.
    There are the FOSS and other ‘tekkie’ geeks, and I would strongly bet that these formed part of the initial critical mass needed to get SL off the ground.
    The new media industry is looking to SL, too, and journalists, commentators and professionals are all invovled.
    Academics find a lot of it facinating, with a good few postgrads studying aspects.
    Commercial players are one of the aspects unique to SL, ranging from traditional business to the get-rich-quick players.
    The regular person, who has found the game through all the promotional features that SL has seen.
    The gamer-geeks, who want a game to play.
    In some aspects, these different groups do support eachother. But from my reading, there is little they agree on aside from the “amazing significance to the future” of SL. Which, infact, is all that SL seemed to be primed with, and the biggest bit of information about the world that anyone outside of SL ever really hears (I can’t think of a nice word to describe this, help me out someone).

    On the issue of emotion and code, which you touched briefly on at the end, I am reminded very much by some of the discussions over at Groklaw. A lot of these things really get very complex, especially in matters of law and design. From a design point of view, I find this truth over VW objects both academically interesting and rather frightening, because it highlights a degree of trust and responsibility that has to be considered.

    Which thankfully brings me back to the topic at hand in order to close. Once again, the priming of the worlds and of the communities comes back into play. Such issues are typically resolved within the more-gamey/worldey (as opposed to UCC-ey or real-world-trade-y) games by a measure of the world priming. There are few illusions about who owns items, and in many respects I would argue that trust is placed more in the shared game, rather than in items and percieved ownership. As the ammount of primed game reduces, and the importance of UCC and real-world-trade increases, the importance of trust increases.

    (This post was brought to you by the word “prime” and the numbers 2, 3, 5, 7, 11, 13, 17…)

  2. Michelle Readman said on

    The more I think about it, the more I feel that community seperation and meshing is strongly related to the initial priming of those communities, how those communities react to drift in their focus, and how communities present themselves to the outside world.

    This is a greater issue than one just present within VWs, one which relates strongly to a lot of current international politics.

    From a VW perspective, however, the challenge of shaping this priming and promotion is certainly an area for investigation.

    SL’s priming towards ‘uniqueness’, isolating the community, may infact be why the game has been so easily adopted by the regular press. They don’t have to investigate any history or other products to understand the image put forward, and hence to attract SL more players. Fixing the weaknesses in SL you talk about would increase the priming level and make it less ‘unique’, damaging their current promotional model.

    I’m afraid I’m tired (which explains the long ramble, I’m sorry), and I can’t quite take the above onwards any more. What would be the benifits of allowing the promotional model to change? Would the rewards of improving the new user experience (essentially the problem outlined) outweigh the damage to the priming and promotion that it would cause?

    It’s a very strange business model to consider when going to bed.

  3. Prokofy Neva said on

    I’ll give your post a more thorough reply on my own blog, Raph, but I have to say, your remarks sound to me like some of my English literature professors who used to fuss and fume about people who wrote poetry without knowing any classics, and not knowing the Four Quartets by heart, or not knowing sonnets, or not knowing what a simile is. But college kids, well, they just write poetry, some good, some bad, and even if they go through the formal training and learn all the protocols, they may actually still suck as poets.

    Oh, I grant you SL is insular. But it’s a big insular with a lot of open possibilities — certainly by contrast with WoW. You are forgetting that I did spend a lot of time in TSO and ATID and also visited There, and WoW and Runescape and things like that I tend to think of as war games for kids. I don’t see all this rich conceptually interesting stuff there that you and the TN types do.

    I don’t get why we should be dismissed as insular, parochial, and not knowing the history of our betters just because we never sat and slogged through the geeky wonkiness of a MUD. I never want to have to go in the MUD, Raph. Do I have to??? Why? Aren’t we past that now? Can’t we be?

    I don’t expect to completely absorb the history of a country when I visit it to appreciate it. In fact, if I go and “play” a country, it is only by entering it at its current, present level that gradually, I might unfold its history in some meaningful way.

    I wish, instead of drawing elaborate pedigrees and geneologies and family trees you would speak more distinctly to the *issues*. To strain them out of this or that game context, and articulate what they mean. And that’s what is missing. You can’t have an interesting discussion about CopyBot with 14 other gameworld geeks who don’t have user made content in their worlds.

    I don’t think of myself as having stars in my eyes about SL, or about being some hippie tree-hugging type that gets all giddy about some emotional high in SL. More often than not these days, you have a low in SL, not a high lol. But what I try to do is outline the various faculties of the human being. There is this or that spiritual faculty or property, this psychological property, that physical property. And a thing like SL reaches different places.

    And don’t be all bent out of shape over me selecting to criticize what you’re writing about this, not only is it not personal, but I think of you as the only enlightened game god we have really talking to customers/players/residents these days. I’m certainly not going to be getting Cory Linden to be talking to me about CopyBot; even if he had his pedigree in arcade games, I’ve now been banned off the Linden official blog merely for posing a question to Cory calling for accountability in his endorsement of libsecondlife, whose members made, deployed, and justify CopyBot.

    I think a lot of what I do write about is probably inside baseball to SL, and it may come out as sounding more meta than it is. But please don’t make me sit and struggle to level up in some dumb shooting game just to be part of the conversation about virtual worlds. I resist.

  4. Michael Chui said on

    Michelle,

    One of the key things I took away from danah boyd’s recent paper on friendship and social network sites, was this:

    The networked nature of impressions does not only affect the viewer — this is how newcomers decided what to present in the first place. When people first joined Friendster, they took cues from the people who invited them. Three specific subcultures dominated the early adopters — bloggers, attendees of the Burning Man festival, and gay men mostly living in New York. If the invitee was a Burner, their Profile would probably be filled with references to the event with images full of half-naked, costumed people running around the desert. As such, newcomers would get the impression that it was a site for Burners and they would create a Profile that displayed that facet of their identity. In decided who to invite, newcomers would perpetuate the framing by only inviting people who are part of the Burning Man subculture.

    Summarily, whoever makes the first mark on a blank slate will find the world revolving around them, whether they like it or not, whether they intended it or not. That’s pretty standard in terms of adoption curves, but it’s a little inverted. The designer has the first opportunity to make a mark, and the content team thereafter may as well. In the case of Second Life, they chose not to make a mark in the world at all and let the early adopters do that.

    Part of the reason companies these days are encouraged to start a blog is so that they can “take part in the conversation”; and it’s pointed out that the conversation will happen without them if they don’t say anything. This mentality deserves getting ported over to community development: when you take part in the conversation, you lend in the Official Stance, which is all too easy to get absorbed by people who are true believers. In your average game, it’s far easier to become a true believer: that’s the point of roleplaying, to be immersed. So believing that the world is full of orcs and elves is pretty easy. Linden Labs did it differently; belief is about their status in the greater context of business, the Internet, and similar technologies. It’s harder to make true believers out of that, but clearly, it happens. Sigil is doing the same thing with Vanguard (”third generation MMORPG”, they say, not that I’m convinced), only less radically and not exclusively.

    In response to Matt Mihaly’s post on the Shirky write-up, I said, “SL ought to set up a game for the newbies inside a dome… and have normal SL outside it. You could come-of-age by stepping outside the dome Forever.” It might work; I have no idea.

  5. Prokofy Neva said on

    Gaaah, that’s an awful concept, you leave your mark on a world just cuz you got their first and indelibly bork it forever? That’s not fair. And yet, you are right, that does happen. Reminds me of the chapter “The First Joke” in C.S. Lewis’ “The Last Battle” when they all came to the dawning of the creation of the world.

    It’s true that the Lindens cultivate all this technolibertarian stuff and can get fairly aggressive about it but I think at this point, they have a world where even Le Pen has opened up a sim there and an ACLU chapter member got started poking around. I mean, it’s got everything from soup to nuts. It’s like you too RL and reshuffled the deck.

    A dome for newbies? They have that. It’s called “Orientation Island” or “Welcome Island”. But you can’t really have much fun there, and who wants to sit and read notecards. You learn by doing in these places and having something you want to do badly enough that you’ll learn how to do it. And that’s why a lot of people don’t stick — they don’t want anything there badly enough to stick it out, and if it isn’t served up quickly enough, they leave. I find lots of 15 year old Little Princes tapping their foot and demanding I do for them even at my rentals level, and if the world won’t load, or they can’t rez or something else is awry, they go back to WoW lol.

  6. Prokofy Neva said on

    Michelle, why would we need to prime worlds? I agree that a bit of a framework and even a very light overarching rule-of-law type of framework would be good, but why all this priming that sounds so intensely controlling and indelible? Couldn’t you just leave it to people to prime their own sim?

  7. Raph said on

    Fair enough, Prok. And I hope you know that I am not saying this in any sort of aggressive way, but more as detached commentary.

    By and large, your English professors were right. It is extraordinarily rare to come across a good poet with no exposure to what has been done before, a musician who has never learned someone else’s music, and so on.

    A user doesn’t need to know about the history of other virtual worlds. But I think that for those who wish to be involved in commenting on, discussing, debating, advocating, dissecting, analyzing, developing, extending, or otherwise getting down and dirty, it’s essential. It’s hugely valuable. At the very least, it provides common ground for discussion. You aren’t a tourist visiting a foreign country anymore — you’re writing guidebooks for others. You’re critiquing, you’re advocating change, you’re prescribing.

    Keep in mind that what I described as insular was primarily the SL blogosphere, which is all made up of pundits. The pundits are the folks we want to be more widely read. (I like to think that part of the reason why people come to this blog is because though it is relatively tightly focused, it’s also broad and catholic in its references and sources. But maybe I’m wrong).

    If I could give you an Xmas present, it’d be Julian Dibbell’s first book, My Tiny Life: Crime and Passion in a Virtual World, because I think you’d both really appreciate it, and because I think it would help give lots of context that would make our discussions more fruitful.

    As far as interesting stuff — yeah, Runescape is a war game for kids. But the fact that there are extremely large networks of 11 year olds across multiple countries engaging in large-scale economic activity within it is fascinating. The way in which ATITD experiments with things like gender behavior research as part of their game design. The dynamics of voice chat versus text chat in high-level raiding organizations in WoW. Heck, WoW’s UI alone is a master class for Second Life in general.

    Can these be separated out, strained from the broth, so to speak? Sure. I have done that before… I did it with reputation systems and I did it with trust mechanics, if you recall. I did it with multiplayer vs single-player, I did it with metrics and with interaction patterns and attention. All of these apply to the SL universe and worldview just as much as to any other VW, honestly. Heck, part of the reason to make the case about how the MUDs and the graphical worlds are the same thing is precisely in order to force us out of looking at each VW or style as being somehow radically different.

    I am glad you think of me as enlightened. :) We will be announcing our startup in the next couple of days, and when we do, believe it or not, I hope you’re among those who are interested.

  8. Prokofy Neva said on

    Regarding your link to the Tree of Remembrance.

    I appreciate this story; I appreciate that it is written in 1998; I appreciate that this represents a generic issue for all worlds and games, the nexus between the real person, who might die, and the avatar, who might find a way to live beyond death.

    And it even mentions the Velveteen Rabbit, something I was going to raise here, but felt would only lead to be being harassed and pilloried on sites with names like Vom This or Vom That. But it’s like that.

    But…Raph, seriously, do you think that if we hadn’t read that essay that is a touchstone for you from 1998; if we didn’t know the Norwegian girl; if we didn’t grok through the wierdness involved in this:

    “Code was changed so that items left in this manner became permanent parts of the world.”

    (gaah, a player has to *die in RL* to get these devs to change their damn game!).

    But that’s ridiculous. To say that sort of thing — which you seem to be doing with all your pedigree stuff here — is to say something like, oh, in RL human experience, the African mother who loses her son to a war and weeps in the desert three centuries ago is unconnected to the Russian mother who loses her son in a war 25 years ago or an Iraqi mother who loses her son in a war today. They all have the same common human experience. They all lost their sons. The Russian mother didn’t have to first bone up on the African mother’s experience and learn the history of grieving to be able to know that she hurt over her son’s death.

    that’s what I don’t like about your premises — the idea that those of us who didn’t realize, “Wow, a person online that I can come to know in some unique special way” through a MUD, instead of say, The Sims Online, or even Yahoo Messenger, are somehow lesser participants in virtuality. We aren’t. These experiences are available to be had, over and over again. People have died, and have been mourned in the Sims, in WoW, in SL, without ever having genuflected to the Norwegian ur story.

  9. Raph said on

    I’m not Michelle, but I will offer some answers:

    - because most people who come to something do not want to be contributors instantly, they want to soak in something first.

    - because most people never actually graduate to major content contributors; they prefer to contribute in minor ways, and be content consumers most of the time, so priming the world gives them something to do.

    - because most content creator of all stripes are imitative (this is not a bad thing nor a knock against them), and you want to provide them something to imitate and build off of.

    - because you want to provide a trellis to shape what grows; priming a bit can help the eventual arrangement of “furries over here, boutiques over there” and thus minimize eventual pointless conflicts.

    - Beyond that, you may have goals like “we want the content users make here to be socially valuable” or “oriented towards economic activity” or “safe for children” or whatever. Priming provides cues as to what is the sort of contributions that people should make.

    These are just some reasons. None of them preclude everyone still making their own sim with whatever they want. It’s akin to hinting to people that this is a nice view by putting a bench there.

  10. Prokofy Neva said on

    Raph, she isn’t here to have this convo, but honestly, I think that’s not what she means.

    I’m grateful to our Lindens that they primed the world of SL by putting up those basic brown hills, asphalt roads, and lovely Eric Linden’s Ideal of Nature trees. It’s all good.

    And I’d like even a bit more priming with things like “hey, let’s put laggy clubs with stupid chatting devices over *here* and let’s have quiet residences over *there* so they don’t fight endlessly and clubs have a veto on everyone else’s FPS*. But, I take it as it comes.

    Finding a balance of priming and not priming enough has to be awfully hard, and you probably have to say in the end, in an open-ended world, we’re going to leave the priming to the residents.

    The Lindens sure front-loaded the “content creators are socially valuable” stuff WAY overboard in some ways, but there are enough other balancing factors now that you can’t even fault them too much for this.

    As much as you think I need to put myself in the strait jacket of visiting and groking all your synthetic closed worlds, I do wish you’d take more of a gander at the open-ended world of SL.

  11. Raph said on

    I’m not sure what you think she means then…? I read it as literally “priming” as in “priming the pump,” as in providing initial activities, settings, etc. Stuff like interfaces and newbies experiences are all part of that.

  12. Raph said on
    “Code was changed so that items left in this manner became permanent parts of the world.”

    (gaah, a player has to *die in RL* to get these devs to change their damn game!).

    Um, even in SL, leaving an object on someone else’s space results in it getting cleaned up, yes? Cleaning up objects isn’t weird. :) In a gameworld, you can’t have dropped objects remain everywhere, or the world would be full of junk.

    In any case, you misread my intent in my putting that link there. It was there in support of your argument about emotion conferring value, and to point out that I’ve used exactly the same argument myself, and that lots of people have, and we share many of the same ideas and ideals about these things — and yet, I still disagree about your conclusion on property. :)

    It’s not about the date on which it was said, or in which world it happened, at all.

  13. magicback (Frank) said on

    Following Michelle’s and Michael’s lines of thought and thread of conversation, I think Matt Mihaly’s suggestion to create a newbie zone in SL for the gamer demographic is useful as an entry stage to connect the two spheres.

    Following on Michael’s quotation of Danah Boyd’s recent paper on friendship and social network sites, I recall Bloom’s Taxonomy of Educational Objectives where people move from impressions to the subsequent stages: (1) remembering, (2) understanding, (3) applying,
    (4) analyzing, (5) evaluating, and then ultimately (6) creating.

    WoW does a good job of guiding newbies through the first five stages and don’t offer much in stage 6 (UI customization and social institutions). SL, on the other hand, doesn’t do much to guide people through the stages. You get a fat-tails of people in the remembering stage (excellent PR effects) and in the creating stage (excellent creation tools). The result is that the users of WoW fits into the well-known learning curve or the pyramid distribution. SL, on the other hand, does not.

    Thus, the idea of priming worlds does have currency and have network building benefits. Adding opportunities for the creating stage in WoW and more opportunities for the stages lacking in SL will bridge the cultural spheres.

    Frank

    P.S. I’m using WoW and SL as examples only because they are the most well known. WoW stands for MUDs and SL stands for MOOs. My thoughts on SL applies also to Multiverse. Both can benefit from creating entry points for network/spheres to connect/overlap along the various stages. Well, as Prokofy said, we’ll just have to wait for the residents of SL to prim the world for themselves (e.g. recreation of WoW raid scenarios in SL).

  14. Prokofy Neva said on

    Raph,

    In SL, you can opt to have autoreturn on, or not. You can opt to let people build, or not. To leave objects only set to a group that you invite them to, or not. To have the autoreturn only return non-group objects, or not. To deny even object placement by those banned. So there’s more and more granularity there. And yeah, I got the idea that stuff gets left around. You’re forgetting that I spend probably 50 percent of my many hours on Second Life clearing prims, precisely because I can’t leave on autoreturn. The merciless god autoreturn makes newbies scream at me that I’m deleting their furniture or “my land is eating their furniture” so until I can get them to join the group, activate it, figure the tools, to keep the stuff on their land, I have to leave it off in some areas.

    The way you set up your argumentation here, it seemed to me that rather than supporting my concept of the emotional or spiritual relationship one can have to virtual things, you were harkening to the glorious revolutionary past were you could say We Did That Already. See, you have to admit your reading references can only be seen in that light, given how assiduous you have been in explaining that those of us who came later and missed the memo on MUDs have no context and no appreciation.

    Of course you will always and everywhere disagree with my notions of property because you pwn the property in a 101 ways. I’m here to rest it from your game-god hands, however, so that I, too, can have a world!

  15. Michael Chui said on

    I wanted more detail, Frank, so I found this site on Bloom’s Taxonomy. Faculty site, so I assume it’s credible. He swaps 5 and 6. http://faculty.washington.edu/krumme/guides/bloom1.html The taxonomy seems more to be a directional list.

    I wrote this a couple years back: http://raccaldin36.livejournal.com/506551.html and also wrote http://www.aqualgidus.org/definition-of-love.html#3.2 this summer.

    I never thought I’d apply my musings on educational content to virtual world design, but it makes a surprising amount of sense. Thanks. So, digging in.

    The first thing you have to define is an educational objective that you’re actively trying to achieve.

  16. Michael Chui said on

    I wanted more detail, Frank, so I found this site on Bloom’s Taxonomy. Faculty site, so I assume it’s credible. He swaps 5 and 6. http://faculty.washington.edu/krumme/guides/bloom1.html The taxonomy seems more to be a directional list.

    I wrote this a couple years back: http://raccaldin36.livejournal.com/506551.html and also wrote http://www.aqualgidus.org/definition-of-love.html#3.2 this summer.

    I never thought I’d apply my musings on educational content to virtual world design, but it makes a surprising amount of sense. Thanks. So, digging in.

    A dome for newbies? They have that. It’s called “Orientation Island” or “Welcome Island”. But you can’t really have much fun there, and who wants to sit and read notecards. You learn by doing in these places and having something you want to do badly enough that you’ll learn how to do it. And that’s why a lot of people don’t stick — they don’t want anything there badly enough to stick it out, and if it isn’t served up quickly enough, they leave.

    That’s the point, Prokofy. “Orientation Island” is NOT the dome, because Orientation Island is bloody boring. The vast majority of games have an equivalent, but they’re a touch above boring. Most of these at least have you committing the great rite of killing your first virtual helpless blob. But it’s more interesting than reading a bunch of information.

    The first thing you have to define is an educational objective that you’re actively trying to achieve. In the case of Second Life, I’d suggest it be becoming an active builder, to use MOO terminology. If you don’t make it that far, you would at least have sufficient knowledge to be a decent critic. If you don’t get that far, you would at least have sufficient exposure to be able to enjoy it as it is, rather than having a skewed image of it. The step after builder would likely be business owner, and LL is already working on that with SLdevU, and I’m still pissed they held in SF where I couldn’t attend.

    So, I would put “desire to know” first up. The way you do that is by showing off things that other people have made. So the dome should include a museum gallery of sorts, windows into other places. Heck, make an interaction with them capable of transporting you there. James Au seems to feature a couple places every so often, and I know some other people are doing something similar, so that’s plenty of fodder.

    Then you’d need to provide tutorials for actually building things. Last I checked, these didn’t exist. So take, say, three disparate components. Maybe a cube, a texture, and a cone. Teach them how to build something simple with these.

    Then do something mindlessly simple as feedback. Have “recipes”, where the idea is to construct some arrangement/texture. Succeeding at this gives you points. The points are absolutely useless, though maybe you could convert them to L$ at a 1:1000 rate. Or perhaps let residents offer special deals or exclusive activities as rewards. Take these points, though–okay, I lied, not totally useless–and use them to unlock new recipes. Eventually, you unlock all the recipes. Intermediate arrangements should include scripts. Naturally, the last ones will be pretty hard to create, but succeeding will still give you that fiero of achievement.

    When you’ve built it all the way to “the end”, you have nothing left to do, so like a college kid whose parents have gotten fed up with him, you get tossed out on your butt and you have to figure things out from there. If people don’t stick after they’ve spent all this time on the tutorials, then they probably wouldn’t stick anyways.

    Whew. That was kinda fun. I have no idea why system design is fun for me; I just get an idea and start spinning yarns. Anyways, all the ideas re: the newbie dome/zone in this comment are free for the taking. No credit necessary, blah, blah, yay for MIT licenses. And now I need to spend some quality time with my subconscious, and whatever dark fantasies might lurk in those depths.

    …like…angler fish? Pretty light…

  17. Endie said on

    But that’s ridiculous. To say that sort of thing — which you seem to be doing with all your pedigree stuff here — is to say something like, oh, in RL human experience, the African mother who loses her son to a war and weeps in the desert three centuries ago is unconnected to the Russian mother who loses her son in a war 25 years ago or an Iraqi mother who loses her son in a war today. They all have the same common human experience. They all lost their sons. The Russian mother didn’t have to first bone up on the African mother’s experience and learn the history of grieving to be able to know that she hurt over her son’s death.

    Yes, but if the Iraqi mother is interviewed on television, and it turns out that she believes that she is the first mother ever to lose her son in war, what she says - while undoubtedly poignant - will not be terribly useful in constructing a better care model for others.

  18. Ace Albion said on

    You could say that the SL chatsphere is inward looking, maybe it is… There’s an element of siege mentality with us sometimes. On the other hand, you could say that a thriving multi-cultural exchange buzzing around all the other MMO things isn’t any more outward looking, because under the skin all those games are just the same thing. It’s like a lot of people enthusing about 100 varieties of apples pointing at the couple of people in the corner who got hold of a satsuma, and saying “aren’t they inward looking, they never talk about apples, they know nothing of the history of apples. What’s the big deal about oranges anyway?” People are still arguing over what kind of fruit SL is.

    Michelle’s posts are a good reminder of the game/no game debate. She wants more priming to give people a clue to the rules of the game. I don’t like the game label for SL, not out of some need to rise above anything, but because it’s just really unhelpful. It’s pragmatic to say SL isn’t a game. You play whatever game you bring with you, or join someone elses. It’s playground stuff. You can play in the sandpit, or on the climbing frame, or play tag or dolls. The way people used to play before someone had the idea of feeding them scripted interactive vignettes to star in.

    In some ways we are priming new user experiences- where they end up in their first couple of days can define what SL is to them, at least for a while. Just like in RL, where your “world” tends to consist of the places you visit daily- home, work, family/friends home, sports club, pub etc. All our worlds are different, and overlap in various places.

    So when I signed up to SL last July, it was to visit a building that Always_Black made- a virtual construct of his website called the _blacklibrary. I looked round it for an evening and left SL for about two months not seeing any point. The next time I looked in again, there were people there to talk to, and something clicked. I’ve been in SL since, and did what I could to help out at the library, making it my home location for months. New people would visit, and I guess in some way their SL was primed for them by the group of people that hung around at the library- the same as was and is going on at all kinds of locations in SL. Most of the ones that hung around for a week with us at the library I still see showing up online- they “stuck”. I’m not saying we were the ideal greeters, but I suppose our group appealed to a certain kind of visitor, and they liked having a familiar feeling peer group with them while they discovered what was in SL for them on their own terms.

    I am a big fan of the language of spaces and constructs- I like doors and stairs in a world that needs neither, for their iconic reasons as much as the fun of walking up or through them. So yes, a bench is a good indicator of a view to be admired. What’s better, though, is someone sat on the bench to say “Hi there, come see the view.”

    Any kind of priming will have an agenda behind it- that’s the point, after all, to influence the early experience and development of the people in the world. What you want really is a way to catch new people to talk to and encourage without being uncool in the way that “help” or “orientation” places are. Who reads the manual, let alone submits to being lectured at? I put myself in the place of the “good stuff” new people rushed to- a sex club. Get people talking and you find they hit these places out of curiosity mainly, but when they develop friendships out of discussion they go on to do “more productive” things with their time.

    That was longer than I meant for it to be.

  19. Cael said on

    Can we not do the “Web 1.0″/”Web 2.0″ thing? Until somebody makes a dramatic change to http, the web is exactly what it has always been, we just exploit it in new ways now and then.

    More on-topic, i agree with both Raph and the SL Booster Brigade - SL is not a game. We merely disagree on other things it isn’t. It isn’t the “multiverse” and it isn’t the future of online communication.

  20. Gabriel said on

    I think Prokofy doesn’t understand why it’s useful to look at the experiences of previous virtual worlds, text or graphical. It’s to prevent yourself from making the same mistakes that were made in the past. Yes, Prokofy, you make a good point by saying human experience is the same regardless of time and place, but if that’s all you use to defend SL, you’ll make the same mistakes other people make (regardless of time and place).

    By training I’m a political scientist, and a large part of doing political work is analyzing what went wrong in the past and how we can avoid that in the future. I approach virtual world design the same way: what’s worked best in the past, and how can we adapt it for our own world? Raph does this as well. “I did it with reputation systems and I did it with trust mechanics, if you recall,” he says. “I did it with multiplayer vs single-player, I did it with metrics and with interaction patterns and attention.” That’s what good designers do, so we don’t have thousands of people making the same mistakes that were made with Pong or Duke Nukem Forever (I still hold out hope!).

    I agree with Raph on SL’s insularity as well. Prokofy, it seems like you can’t understand why we’ve visited SL and not been affected by it. “I do wish you’d take more of a gander at the open-ended world of SL,” you say, but many developers have already. We’re not unimpressed, but rather we can say “oh, look at this logical progression from worlds like LambdaMOO.” Maybe you need to look at the larger context and realize that while SL is impressive, fascinating, and a legitimate phenomenon, it’s only part of online virtual worlds.

  21. Gabriel said on

    On the other hand, you could say that a thriving multi-cultural exchange buzzing around all the other MMO things isn’t any more outward looking, because under the skin all those games are just the same thing.

    I actually see SL on the same slider as other MMOs. If the variable is more or less creative freedom, then SL is just on the extreme edge of “more.” Games like DDO are on the extreme edge of “less.”

  22. Orrey said on

    Its interesting to see the different reactions in the “main stream” i.e tradiational gaming world to getting what the game companies want to get. By this I mean over the last few years you see article after article by the game makers talking about reaching a wider audience - finding new demographics etc.
    When SL acually does this - the player base is largly different than “the core gamers” that the companies have been trying to reach past to widen markets. Its amusing to see the reaction of the “core gamers” and to a large extent the game makers that were pontificating about the broader marke when they see an example of what they are asking for.
    Its like the Newtonians vs. the Quamtum guys all over again :)

    Im not attacking either side , Im just saying its strange to see the huge reaction as people try to fit “what they say they wanted” ( in the case of the game makers, I dont think the core audience cared if the field broadened or not they already had what they wanted) into thier view of the game world. SL is just the first differnet online “game” to get big enough to have been noticed and I think we will see even wilder reactions in the future to new directions if the industry acually does spread out to new things and new approaches.

    The natural reaction of all the sides trying to fit it into one view will be a larger hurdle than creating the products that reach wider or new audiences. And I think ulimatly futile. Most people will realise that there isnt one view of whats right or correct and all the hub ub will die down. The SL hype and the SL bashing will die off as the Newtonians realise that Quantum doesnt invalidate thier view it just discribes a different solution to a different problem and there is room for growth in all the areas. and the Quamtum guys will realize that thier stuff isnt that revolutionary and didnt spring full born from the navel of god and just get on with growing in thier area.

    While they both gang up to fight off those new String Theory heritics.

  23. Michelle Readman said on

    I think that society has potentially caused itself all kinds of problems with the word ‘game’. We’ve ended up having discussions over what should or should not be considered a game, without actually looking at what matters. Why do people begin to get involved with something? Why do they stick around? Is it fun?

    Making something fun and enjoyable does not automatically make something a game, and the more fun something is, the more likely people are to dedicate themselves to it.

    That’s why I’ve been using VW (Virtual World) rather than ‘game’. If you look at many of the industry leaders, the game itself as provided is fairly minimal, and a fair percentage of the playerbase is involved more in other activities than the game as originally provided. They run guilds, they roleplay (some games prime the roleplaying more than others, however), they create content.

    If you look at the activities of many of it’s editors, Wikipedia has clearly become more of a virtual world than an encyclopedia, and certainly some people play the wiki game.

    A theory of fun (the concept, rather than the book, but I hear it’s good ;)) is required before you can build a theory of ‘game’. Thinking briefly on the topic, a game is simply something that is taken less seriously than what you are comparing it to.

    Ultimately, we could create a plane of ‘worlds’, with seriousness on one axis and by-design priming on the other. ‘Real Life’ is the most strongly primed, and very serious. Most MMORPGs are medium-to-strongly primed, and not that serious. Second life is without priming, but is not sure where it wants to be in terms of seriousness. Those using SL for business wish it to be very serious, yet those who arrive at SL from reading about it in the press are more likely to wish for something less serious than their ‘first life’.

    Ace is entirely correct in saying that the users of Second Life provide the priming, as it is within internet forums and IRC. I’m not entirely sure however of the suitability of this for a commercial enterprise, however.

    Michael puts forward an interesting idea for a means to help introduce players to SL, but this was the dilemma I was talking about in my second reply. A detailed new user experience along such lines would be stating that the point to SL is to make in-game items. Although this is how a significant number of players enjoy themselves, I don’t think this is something they would agree on, and it runs quite contrary to what Linden Labs needs to present in order to ensure their press appeal.

    The discussion of Bloom’s Taxonomy of Educational Objectives is exactly why I partake in things here. Thank you, you’ve introduced me to a valuable resource for design theory!

  24. Michelle Readman said on

    Note that my above example basically treats history and content creation outside of living memory of the users to be by-design priming, as the two could be considered indistinguishable.

    If you add in an axis for the potential for enjoyment (eg, priming on x axis, seriousness on y, enjoyability on z), you get an interesting representation of worlds, although longevity and accessability may also be needed to complete the exploration. Accessability is a bit of a tough one, since you need to compare the worlds to some other world to form this metric (well, moreso than you need to do for the others, which also technically need this to a degree).

  25. Raph said on

    Orrey, WoW is also reaching past “core gamers,” only it’s getting ALL of them to pay, and in significantly larger numbers — two orders of magnitude larger. Hence the game industry’s attention is aimed there.

    SL isn’t the first virtual world to have gotten big enough to get noticed in this fashion. It’s just been noticed the most. The hype factor is familiar — this is what Randy Farmer was referencing. It’s not that it isn’t more merited now, because it is. But the very phrases are remarkably similar.

    you could say that a thriving multi-cultural exchange buzzing around all the other MMO things isn’t any more outward looking, because under the skin all those games are just the same thing.

    I have two answers for you. One is that under the skin, SL is also the same thing; it varies more in its business practices than in how it works and what it is. And the other is that all those other MMO things are a lot more varied than you think.

    The way you set up your argumentation here, it seemed to me that rather than supporting my concept of the emotional or spiritual relationship one can have to virtual things, you were harkening to the glorious revolutionary past were you could say We Did That Already. See, you have to admit your reading references can only be seen in that light, given how assiduous you have been in explaining that those of us who came later and missed the memo on MUDs have no context and no appreciation.

    I listed those because you specifically said “why don’t you talk about the issues in a way that goes beyond just one world or one world type.” So I provided a list where I had.

    I wonder, would it be helpful to the entire discussion if I provided the high-level encyclopedia-level post on what the overall context is?

  26. Ace Albion said on

    Raph, the idea I’m trying (and deleting overly long posts about) to get across is that I think “MMO culture” is pretty generic- I have friends who all flit around half a dozen games together, but don’t do SL. The “MMO culture” sees SL as part of it, but a freakish laggy messed up porn riddled part. Most people I meet in SL these days (not like a year ago) haven’t ever done anything with an MMO. MMOs are not their thing, but they’re in SL. A year ago it was people who played WoW or Final Fantasy online. Now it’s people who really are not part of that overall culture of gaming. These are the people I see anyway. It’s fine to say under the bonnet or at the concept level that SL is no different, but I think the perception is otherwise- there’s a one way glass on that join to the MMO crowd. And that, more than some sniffy aloofness from SL advocates explains the lack of integration in discussion. I think.

  27. David (Tal) said on

    I thought I would throw my perspective into this as an MMO player (ok, sometimes an armchair designer, but really just a player).

    Recently, someone visited the forums for our SWG guild/city and made us a pitch about how we should all come play Second Life, where other ex-SWG players had created sets of Star-Wars themed skins, lightsabers, and all sorts of other Star Wars goodniess. And hey, it’s free to play, unless we want to own land, and that costs some money.

    The response from just about everyone was a resounding “no thanks”. For many it was the idea that we’d have to shell out real money, and in some cases a lot of real money, if we wanted to do some of the things that we can do in very unlimited way in SWG for a $15/month subscription. To a lot of players, whether they’re the more social/roleplay oriented type of player or whether they’re the more adventure/hack-n-slash type of player, the whole RMT/microtransaction model is a scary prospect, because everyone is worried that they’ll actually end up spending more than they would have with a subscription (not to mention the social stigma around RMT in general - even in a world where it’s part of the world, people still feel a little wrong doing it). So that was a big reason that a large part of MMO user base just doesn’t “get” SL.

    My response, and you can take it for what it’s worth, was that I am actually put off by a completely free-form world. I consider myself a “contextual roleplayer”, by which I mean that I roleplay within the confines of the established setting and use the setting to help build the persona of my character. In a setting-less game, it would be much harder for me to build a unique identity and roleplay within it, and I’d end up out-of-character more often than not. Now I realize that it is very possible to create settings in SL for people to roleplay in, but there would always be that knowledge out there that not everyone else is playing in the same setting is me or has agreed to be bound by the same rules of that setting, and at least to me, that threatens my level of immersion.

    To use Michelle’s terms, I actually prefer VWs that do some priming by providing us a setting, and a ruleset of some form. It provides a sense of security - of some sort of rules of the reality that I’m playing in. It gives me as a player the expectation that everything I encounter is going to fit into an established context. I understand that’s not what SL is trying to accomplish, and it’s not really trying to be a “game” at all, but I think that this sort of thing may be a very big piece of the “divide” between SL users and other MMO users. Heck, I know a lot of MMO players who are all over stuff like MySpace who still don’t really think SL would be very fun.

    It also doesn’t help normal players like me that nearly all the press we see about SL is about someone making real-world money by running a virtual business. We all look at that and say “it’s cool that they can do that”. But at the same time, we also all realize at some level that other players, potentially many other players, are the source of all that income. The press makes it seem like this is what SL is all about. Most of us struggle enough to achieve financial success in the real world, and we’re not really interested in risking what little of that we’ve had by trying to do it again (in our recreational time) in a virtual world. In other words, as long as it’s just Monopoly money, we’re cool. We’ll go earn it (in-context) and spend it freely. But tie it to our real world wallets and we’re much less likely to want to do that. Maybe if the media focused on other things - like some of the amazing user-created content that’s in SL - instead of focusing on how much money people are making there, then more people might be interested and might buy into the concept.

  28. csven said on

    I think Prokofy doesn’t understand why it’s useful to look at the experiences of previous virtual worlds, text or graphical. It’s to prevent yourself from making the same mistakes that were made in the past.

    However, sometimes the exact opposite occurs: poor choices and mistakes are repeated.

    In product development, there’s not a few examples of new products that came along (e.g. the breadmaker) that were developed based on purely situational constraints (they used some existing components to speed development) but which then set a standard for others who were *not* similarly constrained and could have developed a better solution. But instead they replicate the mistake like bad genetic code passed down from generation to generation.

    Hence, it’s not always true that it’s useful to refer to a predecessor. People often make mistakes by trusting that a previous development group made sound decisions and chose the best dev