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What the Web and games have to teach each otherApril 14th, 2006 |
One of the things that I have been thinking about a lot lately is the way that the current Web world (particularly the Web 2.0 stuff) and games seems to be ships passing in the night. It’s led me to say a lot lately that the two groups have a lot to learn from one another. Right now, with big dot-com folks like Joi Ito calling WoW “the new golf,” there’s a bit more awareness crossing the gap, but sometimes I wonder if the right lessons are bring learned.
So I thought I’d post my quick off-the-top-of-my-head list of stuff that each side should learn from the other.
Things that the Web folks can learn from games:
- Interface. Games bring a lot of interface knowledge to the table; consider that most games offer far more complex environments to navigate, with far subtler information, than the typical webpage. And yet, the current trend towards simpler interfaces in webpages has mostly meant simplifying actual capability.
- It’s the content, stupid. Far too many web services are features, not systems, and far too many of them are intended to grow via user content without being seeded with actual content. The most robust user content communities are those built by fandoms, accreting like pearls around initial ideas.
- Entertainment. Games are about fun; far too many web services are simply not fun. All activities can be improved by adding some fun factor: game-like qualities like collecting, ranking, and so on.
- Feedback. Games understand that everything is about feedback. Websites often seem to forget, and I don’t know why. This is getting better with AJAX, but there’s still a heck of a lot of forms of feedback that are missing, particularly persistent feedback.
- Identity. One thing games typically do well is provide identity and context. I am not referring solely to avatars and characters, but also to themes. Avatars and profiles, obviously, rock. Puzzle games don’t have avatars, and yet the context of Bookworm is memorable, and nobody is going to forget Zuma‘s weirdo frog. Context matters.
- Depth. Games often provide something that is simple on the face of it, yet reveals hidden unexpected depths. It’s implicit in the models games provide. Yet often, a given web service (or even a new application or tool) has no hidden depths. It is what it is on the surface. There’s more enthusiasm for continuing to interact with software when it keeps revealing cool stuff to you.
Things that the game guys can learn from the Web:
- Digital distribution. There aren’t any websites that you buy in a store. That’s because stores are an outmoded way to distribute digital data. The prime reason to do it is because you want to retain control of the entire process from generation of data through distribution and onto the playback mechanism. But bits, by and large, do want to be free.
- Platforms. Web services are full of APIs that connect services and apps, magnify utility, and allow mashups and greater user content. Games, even those which are designed for modding, don’t really embrace openness. The industry is pretty determined to be a content creation industry, but games are not content, they are systems content lives in.
- Everything is a database. The web is built on databases; games aren’t databases, they are models, but they are typically models that interact with databases. Embracing your databaseness opens up all sorts of possibilities for how you interact with the data.
- Small pieces loosely joined. The web has figured out that bite-size chunks are what make sense for the largest amount of people. Sure, lots of bite-sized chunks aggregated into a site like Amazon or eBay makes something that’s big overall, but it’s got some advantages over linear structures: easy to jump in anywhere, easy to do things in different orders, easy to search and index, and easy to add to.
- KISS. Games are in love with overcomplication (particularly the “mainstream” games industry, which is anything but, targeted as it is at mostly hardcore gamers and hobbyists). Most websites do something highly targeted and simple, and do it well. Crazy game budgets are a symptom of a problem, not something to emulate.
- Client agnostic. Web guys rely on standards and assume that any damn browser might interact with their content. They provide alternate versions for differing client platforms. Us, we often design completely new games for different platforms, then release them under the same name.
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[...] Artikel “What the Web and games have to teach each other” in Raph Koster’s Weblog spricht einige dieser Diskussionpunkte im Vergleich Webdesign [...]
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[...] bloid via raphkoster.com Submitted: Sep 24 / 07:25 What the Web and games have to teach each other One of the things that I have been thinking about a lot lately is the way that the current Web [...]
[...] * Interface. Games bring a lot of interface knowledge to the table; consider that most games offer far more complex environments to navigate, with far subtler information, than the typical webpage. And yet, the current trend towards simpler interfaces in webpages has mostly meant simplifying actual capability. * It抯 the content, stupid. Far too many web services are features, not systems, and far too many of them are intended to grow via user content without being seeded with actual content. The most robust user content communities are those built by fandoms, accreting like pearls around initial ideas. * Entertainment. Games are about fun; far too many web services are simply not fun. All activities can be improved by adding some fun factor: game-like qualities like collecting, ranking, and so on. * Feedback. Games understand that everything is about feedback. Websites often seem to forget, and I don抰 know why. This is getting better with AJAX, but there抯 still a heck of a lot of forms of feedback that are missing, particularly persistent feedback…. Source: Raph抯 Website [...]
[...] Read more about it here. [...]
[...] Raph鈥檚 Website 禄 What the Web and games have to teach each other [...]
[...] 分类:数据挖掘 游戏和Web2.0（特别是社区）的融合借鉴是未来的发展趋势，未来成功的社区是游戏性方面占优势的社区。人生不过两种状态，有趣和无趣。我说的游戏性，是指这个社区能够以愉快的方式让人摆脱无聊的状态。王小波至死追求的目标是思维的乐趣，更多的人追求的是低层次的有趣。这是从需求层次来说的，和低级趣味无关。 游戏和Web2.0的融合借鉴这个话题我暂时无法深入去谈，对此感兴趣的朋友一定要看看这篇文章What the Web and games have to teach each other，写的很精彩。 在此简单的谈谈自己的观察。现在很多社区和网站的界面设计都在学习游戏运营公司。观察大多数的游戏官方网站，会发现注册步骤被放在首要位置，攻略等也会放在显眼的位置。让我们再看看Myspace，看看碰碰，看看粉丝，甚至Yahoo和QQ，风格越来越趋向和重视对用户的功能引导与使用帮助。游戏运营卖的是体验和服务，Web2.0同样是以体验和服务为主。这不同于Web1.0时代的媒体化运营，针对做服务和做媒体，麦田好象谈过要不要首页的问题。 其实，做社区能从游戏运营方面借鉴的东西太多了。在游戏领域，圈子里的人都知道，真正的老大不是盛大也不是九城，而是网易。大话西游和梦幻西游出乎想象的成功。曾经研究过网易的推广体系，但随着观察的深入我发现它的成功不能简单的归功于其传销式的网吧推广，在我看来，它的游戏化运营理念已经深入到公司的整体运营中。拿这次世界杯来讲，网易做了一个世界杯观方站活动，这个活动关键的创意不在于用户和网站之间的互动，也不是它的枪稿所说的什么扯淡的Web3.0。我认为它的创意精髓是用户之间的互动，它采用了游戏中的组队策略，将参赛角色进行划分，自由组队搭配，并为用户提供一个组队的交流招募平台。网易通过类似许多游戏化的活动策划，来维持并提升网站和社区的黏度。 Web2.0注重的是个性体验与交流互动，注重的是用户的参与感。成功的游戏运营在这方面积累了丰富的经验，值得我们观察学习。 通过对于数百个Web2.0应用的考察可以发现（考察列表参见上一篇博文），在这股Web2.0应用的大潮中，起决定作用的是技术、内容和用户三方面的相互作用，用户创造或附加内容，技术提供内容组织和与用户交互的手段，内容或基于内容的互动满足用户需求，这似乎是一种三角关系，但在文后的图中将用户作“个人”到“社区”区分，对应于从强调数据到强调技术的差别，用一个四象限图容纳所有的Web2.0应用（这个图示只是模糊的示意，没有具体的指标体系，经不起仔细推敲）。任何一个成功的Web2.0应用都是这三方面结合的复杂有机体，任何单独的方面都难成气候。特别对于技术和内容来说，还必须到达相应的阈值、具备一定的条件才行。 “技术”、“内容”与“用户”在Web2.0应用中呈现出与以往完全不同的“互动”特征，这些特征是这些年来Web相关技术的发展（具体说来是语义Web技术、数字图书馆技术以及Web服务技术）所带来的。 首先，在Web上任何信息都可以被看成是“资源”（也即W3C定义的Resource：能被标识——即具有URI——的任何东西），任何资源都是“可寻址”（URI解析）的。对于数字图书馆来说也是这样，任何被管理的资源均被看成是有独立标识的存在，其内部可以是简单或复杂的“包”结构（Warwick Framework），相互之间也可以有各种复杂的关系（包含、交叉、嵌套），但其独立性与可管理性是同时存在的。我们可以看到在所有的Web2.0应用中，数据可标识、可管理性是一个基本特点（RSS、微结构、微内容），用户也是作为一类特殊的数据存在于系统中（也即刘韧说的“用户必须经过注册才算2.0应用”），也是可以标识和管理的。 其次，除了数据与数据需要建立联系之外（现在好像还没有哪个2.0应用采用Ontology的，当然XFN、DCmetadata等也可以算作初级本体），数据与描述性数据（元数据）也需建立起复杂但是可控的联系，这些联系常常用到大量的标准或非标准的XHTML/XML进行编码（其中涉及大量的标准规范）。这样的数据在系统层面就形成了信息甚至知识，通过系统实现特定的功能，即产生了丰富的Web2.0应用（这种思想与数字图书馆和语义Web如出一辙）。 第三，各类数据及其相互之间的联系需要有想象力的组织模式把他们组织起来。不同的数据所对应的组织方式也是不同的，Web2.0的应用除了要满足数据的权威性（可信的和可验证的）要求之外（目前似乎还不能满足跨应用系统的可验证性，这正是语义Web的目标），也常常要满足动态的、随需产生的、自学习的、多视图的组织要求。例如社会性网络就可以看成是以用户数据之间的某种联系建立起的关系。目前Web2.0的大多数应用都倾向于采用轻量级的Web服务方式（以REST为主），并不排除将来重型的行业应用或大量的同类应用以Semantic Web Services方式进行自动发现和组织，目前体系架构方面的标准规范尚未成熟，但是应用已经等不及了。其负面影响将是：改变语义Web和Web服务的发展路径。应用主导技术，对于W3C来说将是十分可怕的，但是谁让它的东西那么笨重和不好用呢？市场已经等不及了。 基于上述三点，结合目前语义Web、Web服务和数字图书馆的相关技术（以后再详细分析），我们可以管窥Web2.0的未来发展路径，同时也可以预测图书馆2.0（或者数字图书馆）的一些发展趋势。 图中Web1.0和Web2.0只是表达了一种趋势：从左下角到右上角的趋势，所有的应用都具有2.0属性，只不过这张表认为越偏重个人和数据管理的，越像是1.0，而越偏重社会化和技术较为复杂的，越偏重2.0。仅此而已。 [...]
[...] 娓告垙鍜學eb2.0鐨勮瀺鍚堝熼壌杩欎釜璇濋鎴戞殏鏃舵棤娉曟繁鍏ュ幓璋堬紝瀵规鎰熷叴瓒ｇ殑鏈嬪弸涓瀹氳鐪嬬湅杩欑瘒鏂囩珷What the Web and games have to teach each other锛屽啓鐨勫緢绮惧僵銆 [...]
[...] 链接地址：http://zuolo.blog.sohu.com/3390594.html 复制此地址 #rec{border:1px solid #ccc;margin:10px auto 10px;line-height:150%;padding:10px!important;padding:10px 10px 0px;width:670px;} #rec ul{float:left;padding:0px;margin:0px 10px 0px 0px;list-style:none;overflow:hidden;} #rec ul li{white-space:nowrap;overflow:hidden;} #rec ul .recTitle{margin-bottom:5px;} #rec .recBlog{width:60px;border-right:1px solid #ccc;} #rec .recGroup{width:80px;border-right:1px solid #ccc;} #rec .recArt{width:480px;} #rec .recArt li{float:left;width:240px;} #rec .recArt .recTitle{width:480px;} [...]
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[...] The better you target your news, the greater the number of interested people who will see it. Learn More (it’s free!) Logged in as demo. Login Feedback Discussion – Register (no email required) – del.icio.us demo accounts – CleverCS – Web 2.0 Everyone’sSubmitted Links (2369) My TargetedLinks (17) My TargetingLinks (59) My LikedLinks (99) My DislikedLinks (9) My SubmittedLinks (27) Link Surfing Mode What the Web and games have to teach each other – http://www.raphkoster.com/... web2.0, games, webdesign, web, interaction_design, information_architecture, ia, game, design more like this / fewer like this – family – targeting – reply 0 points, submitted 47 days ago Things that the Web folks can learn from games –jrt [...]
[...] 游戏和Web2.0（特别是社区）的融合借鉴是未来的发展趋势，未来成功的社区是游戏性方面占优势的社区。人生不过两种状态，有趣和无趣。我说的游戏性，是指这个社区能够以愉快的方式让人摆脱无聊的状态。王小波至死追求的目标是思维的乐趣，更多的人追求的是低层次的有趣。这是从需求层次来说的，和低级趣味无关。 游戏和Web2.0的融合借鉴这个话题我暂时无法深入去谈，对此感兴趣的朋友一定要看看这篇文章What the Web and games have to teach each other，写的很精彩。 在此简单的谈谈自己的观察。现在很多社区和网站的界面设计都在学习游戏运营公司。观察大多数的游戏官方网站，会发现注册步骤被放在首要位置，攻略等也会放在显眼的位置。让我们再看看Myspace，看看碰碰，看看粉丝，甚至Yahoo和QQ，风格越来越趋向和重视对用户的功能引导与使用帮助。游戏运营卖的是体验和服务，Web2.0同样是以体验和服务为主。这不同于Web1.0时代的媒体化运营，针对做服务和做媒体，麦田好象谈过要不要首页的问题。 其实，做社区能从游戏运营方面借鉴的东西太多了。在游戏领域，圈子里的人都知道，真正的老大不是盛大也不是九城，而是网易。大话西游和梦幻西游出乎想象的成功。曾经研究过网易的推广体系，但随着观察的深入我发现它的成功不能简单的归功于其传销式的网吧推广，在我看来，它的游戏化运营理念已经深入到公司的整体运营中。拿这次世界杯来讲，网易做了一个世界杯观方站活动，这个活动关键的创意不在于用户和网站之间的互动，也不是它的枪稿所说的什么扯淡的Web3.0。我认为它的创意精髓是用户之间的互动，它采用了游戏中的组队策略，将参赛角色进行划分，自由组队搭配，并为用户提供一个组队的交流招募平台。网易通过类似许多游戏化的活动策划，来维持并提升网站和社区的黏度。 Web2.0注重的是个性体验与交流互动，注重的是用户的参与感。成功的游戏运营在这方面积累了丰富的经验，值得我们观察学习。 [...]
[...] 游戏和Web2.0的融合借鉴这个话题我暂时无法深入去谈，对此感兴趣的朋友一定要看看这篇文章What the Web and games have to teach each other，写的很精彩。 [...]
[...] .DoNotDisplay { display: none; } 象运营游戏一样做Web2.0社区[转贴] 转自 http://blog.donews.com/zhangxiang/archive/2006/05/18/874314.aspx 游戏和Web2.0（特别是社区）的融合借鉴是未来的发展趋势，未来成功的社区是游戏性方面占优势的社区。人生不过两种状态，有趣和无趣。我说的游戏性，是指这个社区能够以愉快的方式让人摆脱无聊的状态。王小波至死追求的目标是思维的乐趣，更多的人追求的是低层次的有趣。这是从需求层次来说的，和低级趣味无关。 游戏和Web2.0的融合借鉴这个话题我暂时无法深入去谈，对此感兴趣的朋友一定要看看这篇文章What the Web and games have to teach each other，写的很精彩。 在此简单的谈谈自己的观察。现在很多社区和网站的界面设计都在学习游戏运营公司。观察大多数的游戏官方网站，会发现注册步骤被放在首要位置，攻略等也会放在显眼的位置。让我们再看看Myspace，看看碰碰，看看粉丝，甚至Yahoo和QQ，风格越来越趋向和重视对用户的功能引导与使用帮助。游戏运营卖的是体验和服务，Web2.0同样是以体验和服务为主。这不同于Web1.0时代的媒体化运营，针对做服务和做媒体，麦田好象谈过要不要首页的问题。 其实，做社区能从游戏运营方面借鉴的东西太多了。在游戏领域，圈子里的人都知道，真正的老大不是盛大也不是九城，而是网易。大话西游和梦幻西游出乎想象的成功。曾经研究过网易的推广体系，但随着观察的深入我发现它的成功不能简单的归功于其传销式的网吧推广，在我看来，它的游戏化运营理念已经深入到公司的整体运营中。拿这次世界杯来讲，网易做了一个世界杯观方站活动，这个活动关键的创意不在于用户和网站之间的互动，也不是它的枪稿所说的什么扯淡的Web3.0。我认为它的创意精髓是用户之间的互动，它采用了游戏中的组队策略，将参赛角色进行划分，自由组队搭配，并为用户提供一个组队的交流招募平台。网易通过类似许多游戏化的活动策划，来维持并提升网站和社区的黏度。 Web2.0注重的是个性体验与交流互动，注重的是用户的参与感。成功的游戏运营在这方面积累了丰富的经验，值得我们观察学习。 标签：互联网观察 web2.0 梦想永存 发布于 2006年5月23日 22:58 | 有 0 篇评论 0次点击 [...]
[...] 其实,不敢说是游戏工业最早提出这些技术的,也许军事工业需求更疯狂,但3D,AI,UI等等技术至少在游戏工业里得到非常有益的探索和实践,极大地促进了计算机技术的发展.至于和互联网的关系, 特别是web 2.0,那么社区的概念,Google maps如何加载图片的,Flash里的非常cool的交互界面等等,都有很多借鉴了游戏技术.但我最近关注的是人类心理学..社会学在web 2.0中的应用–游戏已经在运用…老外这篇文章算是一个小结;:http://www.raphkoster.com/2006/04/14/438/What the Web and games have to teach each other [...]
[...] 娓告垙鍜學eb2.0锛堢壒鍒槸绀惧尯锛夌殑铻嶅悎鍊熼壌鏄湭鏉ョ殑鍙戝睍瓒嬪娍锛屾湭鏉ユ垚鍔熺殑绀惧尯鏄父鎴忔ф柟闈㈠崰浼樺娍鐨勭ぞ鍖恒備汉鐢熶笉杩囦袱绉嶇姸鎬侊紝鏈夎叮鍜屾棤瓒ｃ傛垜璇寸殑娓告垙鎬э紝鏄寚杩欎釜绀惧尯鑳藉浠ユ剦蹇殑鏂瑰紡璁╀汉鎽嗚劚鏃犺亰鐨勭姸鎬併傜帇灏忔尝鑷虫杩芥眰鐨勭洰鏍囨槸鎬濈淮鐨勪箰瓒ｏ紝鏇村鐨勪汉杩芥眰鐨勬槸浣庡眰娆＄殑鏈夎叮銆傝繖鏄粠闇姹傚眰娆℃潵璇寸殑锛屽拰浣庣骇瓒ｅ懗鏃犲叧銆傛父鎴忓拰Web2.0鐨勮瀺鍚堝熼壌杩欎釜璇濋鎴戞殏鏃舵棤娉曟繁鍏ュ幓璋堬紝瀵规鎰熷叴瓒ｇ殑鏈嬪弸涓瀹氳鐪嬬湅杩欑瘒鏂囩珷What the Web and games have to teach each other锛屽啓鐨勫緢绮惧僵銆傚湪姝ょ畝鍗曠殑璋堣皥鑷繁鐨勮瀵熴傜幇鍦ㄥ緢澶氱ぞ鍖哄拰缃戠珯鐨勭晫闈㈣璁￠兘鍦ㄥ涔犳父鎴忚繍钀ュ叕鍙搞傝瀵熷ぇ澶氭暟鐨勬父鎴忓畼鏂圭綉绔欙紝浼氬彂鐜版敞鍐屾楠よ鏀惧湪棣栬浣嶇疆锛屾敾鐣ョ瓑涔熶細鏀惧湪鏄剧溂鐨勪綅缃傝鎴戜滑鍐嶇湅鐪婱yspace锛岀湅鐪嬬纰帮紝鐪嬬湅绮変笣锛岀敋鑷砓ahoo鍜孮Q锛岄鏍艰秺鏉ヨ秺瓒嬪悜鍜岄噸瑙嗗鐢ㄦ埛鐨勫姛鑳藉紩瀵间笌浣跨敤甯姪銆傛父鎴忚繍钀ュ崠鐨勬槸浣撻獙鍜屾湇鍔★紝Web2.0鍚屾牱鏄互浣撻獙鍜屾湇鍔′负涓汇傝繖涓嶅悓浜嶹eb1.0鏃朵唬鐨勫獟浣撳寲杩愯惀锛岄拡瀵瑰仛鏈嶅姟鍜屽仛濯掍綋锛岄害鐢板ソ璞¤皥杩囪涓嶈棣栭〉鐨勯棶棰樸傚叾瀹烇紝鍋氱ぞ鍖鸿兘浠庢父鎴忚繍钀ユ柟闈㈠熼壌鐨勪笢瑗垮お澶氫簡銆傚湪娓告垙棰嗗煙锛屽湀瀛愰噷鐨勪汉閮界煡閬擄紝鐪熸鐨勮佸ぇ涓嶆槸鐩涘ぇ涔熶笉鏄節鍩庯紝鑰屾槸缃戞槗銆傚ぇ璇濊タ娓稿拰姊﹀够瑗挎父鍑轰箮鎯宠薄鐨勬垚鍔熴傛浘缁忕爺绌惰繃缃戞槗鐨勬帹骞夸綋绯伙紝浣嗛殢鐫瑙傚療鐨勬繁鍏ユ垜鍙戠幇瀹冪殑鎴愬姛涓嶈兘绠鍗曠殑褰掑姛浜庡叾浼犻攢寮忕殑缃戝惂鎺ㄥ箍锛屽湪鎴戠湅鏉ワ紝瀹冪殑娓告垙鍖栬繍钀ョ悊蹇靛凡缁忔繁鍏ュ埌鍏徃鐨勬暣浣撹繍钀ヤ腑銆傛嬁杩欐涓栫晫鏉潵璁诧紝缃戞槗鍋氫簡涓涓笘鐣屾澂瑙傛柟绔欐椿鍔紝杩欎釜娲诲姩鍏抽敭鐨勫垱鎰忎笉鍦ㄤ簬鐢ㄦ埛鍜岀綉绔欎箣闂寸殑浜掑姩锛屼篃涓嶆槸瀹冪殑鏋ǹ鎵璇寸殑浠涔堟壇娣＄殑Web3.0銆傛垜璁や负瀹冪殑鍒涙剰绮鹃珦鏄敤鎴蜂箣闂寸殑浜掑姩锛屽畠閲囩敤浜嗘父鎴忎腑鐨勭粍闃熺瓥鐣ワ紝灏嗗弬璧涜鑹茶繘琛屽垝鍒嗭紝鑷敱缁勯槦鎼厤锛屽苟涓虹敤鎴锋彁渚涗竴涓粍闃熺殑浜ゆ祦鎷涘嫙骞冲彴銆傜綉鏄撻氳繃绫讳技璁稿娓告垙鍖栫殑娲诲姩绛栧垝锛屾潵缁存寔骞舵彁鍗囩綉绔欏拰绀惧尯鐨勯粡搴︺俉eb2.0娉ㄩ噸鐨勬槸涓т綋楠屼笌浜ゆ祦浜掑姩锛屾敞閲嶇殑鏄敤鎴风殑鍙備笌鎰熴傛垚鍔熺殑娓告垙杩愯惀鍦ㄨ繖鏂归潰绉疮浜嗕赴瀵岀殑缁忛獙锛屽煎緱鎴戜滑瑙傚療瀛︿範銆俆rackback: http://tb.donews.net/TrackBack.aspx?PostId=874314 [鐐瑰嚮姝ゅ鏀惰棌鏈枃] 鍙戣〃浜 2006骞05鏈18鏃 10:53 AM [...]
[...] Der Artikel “What the Web and games have to teach each other” in Raph Koster’s Weblog spricht einige dieser Diskussionpunkte im Vergleich Webdesign <> Gamedesign an. [...]
[...] Raph Koster has posted something of interest, a post titled “What the Web and games have to teach each other” (Link). Interesting to me especially given my post yesterday (reLink) which makes mention of both in their relation to Product Lifecycle Management software (PLM). [...]
[...] Der Artikel “What the Web and games have to teach each other” in Raph Koster’s Weblog spricht einige dieser Diskussionpunkte im Vergleich Webdesign <> Gamedesign an. [...]
[...] Links To Sort Games and websites [...]
Raph, I would add one more thing to things to learn from the web — and I hesitate to bring out an old overused word:
Well defined paradigms
Furthermore, each paradigm has a consistent interpretation. What is it we do on the web? We go to online stores, auction sites, buy tickets, read new articles, find out about a company (and its services/products), discuss on boards, read blogs, and search for all of the above mentioned sites.
Amazon is simple not only because of its design, but because it has all the elements of every other online store. It has a shopping cart, it has an online catalog that you can key word search or browse via categories, it has a “Your Account” page, etc. REI has the same set of things. Each of the paradigms have a consistent interpretation no matter the site. That greatly increases usability.
The well defined paradigms exist in the gaming industry — but the interpretation varies widely from game to game. For example, if I am in an adventure based MMO, I need to group — but the way I form that group varies slightly from game to game. The controls are different. Each game has the same concept of tank, healer, damage dealer, and utility — but a slightly different way to assist.
[...] As part of the SXSW Interactive Festival, ScreenBurn is living testimony that the video game industry and the world of new media technology have a lot more in common than initially perceived. But, don’t just take our word for this idea. Famed gamer Raph Koster posts a very intriguing essay on his blog titled “What the Web and games have to teach each other”. Amongst the many valuable ideas Koster talks about here is that game developers too often make their product much too complex for the majority of users: “Games are in love with overcomplication (particularly the 鈥渕ainstream鈥 games industry, which is anything but, targeted as it is at mostly hardcore gamers and hobbyists). Most websites do something highly targeted and simple, and do it well. Crazy game budgets are a symptom of a problem, not something to emulate.” [...]
[...] http://www.raphkoster.com/2006/04/14/438/ [...]
Heh, Stormgaard, I suspect anyone who only knows me from the lengthy essay-type stuff or the idealistic musings, will have a misperception of how down-to-earth and practical I’ll get regarding design stuff.
Damn Raph. Those observations are unusually down-to-earth for your own bad self.
[...] * Interface. Games bring a lot of interface knowledge to the table; consider that most games offer far more complex environments to navigate, with far subtler information, than the typical webpage. And yet, the current trend towards simpler interfaces in webpages has mostly meant simplifying actual capability. * It抯 the content, stupid. Far too many web services are features, not systems, and far too many of them are intended to grow via user content without being seeded with actual content. The most robust user content communities are those built by fandoms, accreting like pearls around initial ideas. * Entertainment. Games are about fun; far too many web services are simply not fun. All activities can be improved by adding some fun factor: game-like qualities like collecting, ranking, and so on. * Feedback. Games understand that everything is about feedback. Websites often seem to forget, and I don抰 know why. This is getting better with AJAX, but there抯 still a heck of a lot of forms of feedback that are missing, particularly persistent feedback…. Source: Raph抯 Website [...]
However, 鈥/p鈥 is not discoverable.
What I’d recommend is an interface that incorporates Mike’s graphical approach, with mouseover explanations for commands that can act as shortcuts, and further the ability to make changes to the interface such that the extraneous clickings are disabled when no longer needed.
One that I would add to Raph鈥檚 list which is at the core of the Web 2.0 trend is 鈥淯sers Can Make Content Too鈥
I actually jumped over here after reading Costikyan’s latest post, The Democratization of Entertainment. I immediately railed about it, but I thought it was an extraordinary point.
Consider that the Web is also a democratization of the act of publication, and you have an explosive combination, which is precisely what the virtual phenomenon is.
What the Web and game have to teach each other
Raph Koster posted an interesting post/article about what webdevs/webmaster and gamedevs/game publishers can learn from each other.
Quoting some of it here are the ff.
Web folks can learn from games:
Interface. Games bring a lot of interface know…
jdanner said
Saga of Ryzom is attempting to do just that, with the upcoming addition of Ryzom Ring. It may not have been built from the ground up to include it but player generated content. From what I understand there will be private and public content. Private allows players to run friends and invitees through an instanced version while content that meets cannon requirements will be added to the world for all to experience.
Second Life could be argued to be all about player generated content. And while not really an MMO Neverwinter nights did a wonderful job of providing a toolset that spawned thousands of individual persistant worlds that are very similar to MMO but wholly player created. Oblivion and Morrowind before it also provide a toolset that allow additions to the game world (although that world is single player only the mods can be exchanged to allow similar player experiences).
So its out there, but I think the issue comes back to the UI. A casual gamer cannot easily add unique content using these toolsets (I haven’t seen Ryzom Ring so can’t comment on that) as the learning curve is far too steep. I agree with jdanner, but from the point of view that the game needs to be designed from the ground up with an “easy to use” toolset to add to the game world without being a script/code guru.
“/p” – Several people have listed the historical reasons for the command, as well as the advanced-user short-cut reason… However, “/p” is not discoverable. For such a major feature to not be easily figured out by users is a design flaw. In fact, the only way you know that /p works is by reading the manual (which normal people don’t) or by having another playing saying, “Hey idiot! Use /p!”, which acts an interactive manual with a bit of insult and embarassment added.
Remember, if you want to get casual gamers, you need to continually ask, “Would my (grand)mother (or other non-computer-literate relative) be able to figure this out?” (If you don’t care about casual gamers, then the market will never get larger than it already is.)
The nice thing about the web is that everything is discoverable. If a link can be clicked on it’s blue and underlined (except for web sites that try to be fancy (and confusing)).
[...] What the Web and games have to teach each other This entry was posted on Monday, 17 April 2006 at 16:27 and is filed under General, Technology. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site. [...]
[...] post, too.Found via one of my new favorite blogs, 3pointD.comPermalinkEmail thisLinking BlogsComments[0] [...]
[...] 齑 15臧 | 斓滌鞐呺嵃鞚错姼: 2006-04-18 05:56 function PrevPage(goto_bottom) { } function NextPage(goto_top) { } Gaming and Web Design Can Learn from Each Other Marshall Kirkpatrick 2006-04-18 01:18 鞛戩劚 | APIs, design, gaming Filed under: gaming, web 2.0Raph Koster has an interesting write up on what he thinks web designers could learn from game designers and vice versa. There is so much development going on in both realms that the discussion seems quite useful to me. Highlights include:Koster says web designers could learn from games that some of the most important features of a successful design are interface, pre-seeded content and identity.Game designers could learn from the Web 2.0 space about the importance of APIs, simplicity and much more.There’s good dialogue in the comments after Koster’s post, too.Found via one of my new favorite blogs, 3pointD.comPermalink | Email this | Linking Blogs | CommentsSponsored by: Userplane Apps: Live communication applications powering the world’s leading online communities. Danny Sullivan on 10 years of writing about search Marshall Kirkpatrick 2006-04-18 01:02 鞛戩劚 | history, search, web1.0, web2.0 Filed under: search enginesSearch engines are a rich, complicated and important part of the world these days. That’s an understatement. Danny Sullivan is widely regarded as one of the leading experts in the field. Today marks 10 years since he began writing on the subject, and he’s got a good long overview posted at SearchEngineWatch.com- with a nod to the future. It’s industry history, and well worth checking out.Permalink | Email this | Linking Blogs | CommentsSponsored by: Userplane Apps: Live communication applications powering the world’s leading online communities. Blogging could help prevent Alzheimer’s, expert says Marshall Kirkpatrick 2006-04-18 00:12 鞛戩劚 | Alzheimer’s, health Filed under: bloggingThis may be more funny than anything, and a statement about the place blogging is taking in larger cultural discussion. USA Today has run an article on healthy habits that can keep the brain sharp and help prevent the onset of Alzheimer’s disease. Included in the article:"Research on animals and humans suggests mentally challenging activities such as playing bridge, learning a new language or even blogging might help build new connections in the brain, says Molly Wagster at the National Institute on Aging, part of the National Institutes of Health."Seems true enough! I wonder if blog reading has similar benefits? If so, don’t feel obligated to thank me or anything. Actual thanks to Bloggers Blog: Blogging the Blogosphere.Permalink | Email this | Linking Blogs | CommentsSponsored by: Userplane Apps: Live communication applications powering the world’s leading online communities. Africa blogging round up Marshall Kirkpatrick 2006-04-17 23:39 鞛戩劚 | Africa, blogging, Web2.0, Zimbabwe Filed under: nptech [...]
CadetUmfer, there’ a lot of convergence now, because web games have very similar constraints — capture the user quickly, and so on. As more games — even big ones — move to the web, the industry will need to learn the same “hooks” used by the small indies.
I agree with Jason on the rapid typing thing; if you’re typing to talk, then typing for many classes of commands makes more sense than shifting UI methods. The downside comes when the commands you need to type are basic ones for gameplay — most novices reach for the mouse these days, not the keyboard. I am personally convinced that a huge part of the large audiences for Asian games is because they have simpler control schemes. If Korean games had not remained isometric and click to move for so long, I think they would not have gotten such a big audience.
(Why do I have to type /p to talk to my party? Why not a checkbox button on the chat interface: [] talk to everyone, [x] talk to party, [] talk to guild?)
I’d say because typing is often faster than clicking and typing. I would be driven insane if a game forced me to move the mouse and click a checkbox in order to change the scope of my text.
World of Warcraft and City of Heroes both offer variations of the pure command line theme that work well enough for most folks. In WoW, the command line remembers the last place you talked, so you only need to /p the first time you talk to your party. You’ll need to /say or /raid or /gu when you want to stop speaking to your party and switch scope. In CoH, you can set the default channel for text to any available channel (local, zone wide, group, guild, your softball team’s private channel) and then are required only to give the slash command if you want to speak in a different scope. If you really want, you can switch the default manually every time, but taking your hands off the keyboard to move the mouse will be slower than just using the slash commands.
Web interfaces have had a very different path of evolution.
Because the web is far more accessible (client agnostic, free, etc) I can visit a new site in no time at all. Many new sites even. So a given site has ~4 seconds to capture a user. If I can’t figure out the navigation, or get to meaningful content, then bye-bye. accessibility = simple interface, easy access to content.
Games, on the other hand, have a captive audience. I’ve already shelled out $50, or taken the time to download and install your 250MB demo or 1GB client, so I’m going to take some time to figure out your interface. In addition, in MMOs, users are willing to go on very little content for extended periods of time, provided there’s hope/signs that more content does exist. Imagine if Wikipedia took 2 hours to learn to use, and only let you access 5 articles at first, until you read those 5 articles 20 times, then gave you 5 more. captive audience = complex interfaces, obfuscated content for the sake of increasing the amount of content.
One that I would add to Raph’s list which is at the core of the Web 2.0 trend is “Users Can Make Content Too” A lot of web 2.0 is about harnessing the collective knowledge of users to create a better experience in some domain. wikipedia, flickr, sourceforge are all good examples. This has been so starkly missing from MMORPG’s since I started playing EQ 6 years ago. The pathetic sight of a hardcord MMORPG player going into an instance for the 450th time to try to get some epic item has got to stop. There is no question that a great storyline and a ton of original content have to exist in order for the world to be consuming. However, to make it live and breath, users have to make content, not just consume. The closest we’re getting now in WoW are addon’s which just skirt the edge of the system. What we need is for a game company to make the leap and invest the time and money to build their world from the ground up not just with an incredible storyline and great entertaining content developed in-house, but a great authoring system, security, etc. for users to add to the system in a way that doesn’t break it. Blizzard obviously invested a ton in the former and Linden a ton in the latter, but nobody has put them together yet.
(Why do I have to type /p to talk to my party? Why not a checkbox button on the chat interface: [] talk to everyone, [x] talk to party, [] talk to guild?)
I smell command-line legacy design… I was actually going to comment with a plausible explanation, but upon returning to the computer four hours later, I couldn’t remember it.
My general concerns about game UI:
- When is the last time you spent 20 minutes on a tutorial learning how to use a specific web page? (Yes. I know games are more complex concepts than web pages.) Myst (and adventure games in general) are good examples of easy-to-learn UI. MMORPGs are the opposite. (Why do I have to type /p to talk to my party? Why not a checkbox button on the chat interface: [] talk to everyone, [x] talk to party, [] talk to guild?)
To emphasize the point: Uru had WASD style movement. I seems that so many Myst users complained about the difficulty (in moving) that the lastest Myst defaults to nodal movement, and allows WASD as an “advanced” extra. Just think about how many potential MMORPG players are scared away by the difficulties in movement alone?
- Non-standard controls between games (aka: Does space jump, select, or fire for a given game?). Some of this difference is understandable, but not all.
- Hiding functionality amidst eye candy. Sometimes it’s impossible to tell what’s a button and what’s not on the HUD. WoW did a lot of this. I found EQII to be much cleaner.
- Icons instead of text. Oblivion (to pick a current game) shows bizarre icons where text would be more intelligable.
- Non-obvious hotkeys. Oblivion (to pick a current game) is particularly annoying with requiring hotkeys. Not only are they used a lot, but there’s no on-screen display to say that hotkey F2 = function X, so players have to memorize this.
- HUDs in general. It’s far cleanr to have a region of the screen that is “What you see”, and another region for bits and pieces. Modern MMORPGs (HUD crazy) like scattering the bits and pieces everywhere so you feel like you’re driving around with stickers all over your car window and can’t see everything. EQII (as I recall) handled this fairly well by moving the bits and pieces to the bottom of the screen. (Or how about a second monitor for the bits? Many players have a second monitor lying around, and even have dual-monitor support on their video card. The games don’t support it though.)
Actually, I think games are generally excellent at displaying complex information; a modern HUD in a game is a marvel of data display in many ways. Consider how many variables must be kept track of, and yet most gamers manage fine.
Some random thoughts:
Interface – Since when do games have good UIs? Okay. Some of them do, but most have pretty horrific UIs.
Platforms – Very important.
Digital distribution – Very important.
Everything is a database – I actually consider this a problem with MMORPGs and most MUDs. You feel like you’re playing the game in a database… Everything in the world is basically the same except for a numerical variation. Text interactive-fiction and older MUDs have the feel of walking through a program… Everything in the world is unique.
Small pieces loosely joined – Yahoo Games (and similar) are small games loosely joined. (I think) the value in a CRPG/MMORPG are the strongly joined sub-games. If you pull them apart into small pieces they aren’t as fun.
Client agnostic – Of course, text MUDs do this already. From the text-MUD example, you can glean the advantages and disadvantages of the approach.
[...] But the network side of an MMORPG is a frightening undertaking. You have to deal with server load balancing, backup contingency, failure recovery, update scheduling, hack protection, cheat detection, and find a way to do it all without it costing too much. It’s starting to become a known problem, but noones got it right yet. That doesn’t sound very different from a large website, banking system or e-shopping system. People know how to build those. Almost all of that (except cheat detection) is not app specific and is handled by off-the-shelf application servers. Raph Koster made an interesting post about the similarities of games and web devevelopment today. [...]
Nice timing. I’ve been recently refocusing on similar issues; only involving videogames, Web 2.0 apps, and PLM software. As games reach out to the web (e.g. NBA 2k6 and Nike iD), internet connectivity becomes increasingly integrated into PLM software, and PLM software simulation gravitates towards videogame-like interfaces, there should be some remarkable developments in the next few years.
Coming: A Convergence of Game and Web Design?
Raph Koster has a really interesting post up on his blog about what game-makers can learn from what’s going on on the Web these days, and what Web-programmers can learn from what’s going on in game development. Games have things to teach in…
[...] Comments [...]
O’Reilly describes Web 2.0 in 8 bullet points; the second one interests me, “Data is the Intel Inside”. It makes me wonder what the “specialized database” he talks to would be for games.
Wipe the slate; I’ll only talk about RPG genre games.
Mechanics aren’t it; that’s the model. That’s really the rules governing how the data gets altered. No… the data itself isn’t gameplay; it seems to be the gameworld. I think that’s interesting, that what drives an RPG is their unique universe, their lore, their narrative, their… character.
To me, that suggests that MMOs should become more hardcore in order to do better. Why? Well, take the analogy of a good fantasy story. The casual reader, who just picks up a book every few years and reads a few chapters, is clearly not going to get into it. Even the reader who reads all the books and loves it isn’t going to really get into it. They’re spectators, not users. You might place virtual webcams inside your game and let people peek in, but they’re not a target audience.
You want the people who write (possibly crappy) fanfics. You want people who read the Dragonlance Chronicles, and then say, “I want to run a campaign in that world.” Who read “The Last Guardian” and say, “Wow, Khadgar was cool! But what if Khadgar had been, say, a Paladin? I’m gonna play WoW and try it out.” Because those are the people who handle O’Reilly’s #3: “Users add value.” You also have to let them, which is #7, and encourage them, which is #5.
That’s just the RPG genre, though. I’d suspect other game genres ought to widen their market, rather than shrink it. *shrugs* But then again, #1, “The Long Tail”, points to niche and hardcore, not mainstream and casual.
There is no doubt that consumer web is undergoing process of 鈥済ame-ization鈥. It was well underway for few years at least. habbo, neopets, MySpace is very game-like from inception.
I think there will be more 鈥渄istillation鈥 of traditional monolithic game model. There is few distinct set of 鈥済ame genes鈥, which historically evolved together so far. Let say one gene is 鈥渉ardcore-ness鈥. 3D, increasing levels of realism, blow-zombine-with-shotgun, +5-vs-acid-attacks, and install from 5-DVDs types of things. Another is 鈥渟ocial knowledgebase鈥. How guilds forms? How they live? How they breaks? What makes a vibrant game world? What makes it 鈥渟ticky鈥 and makes player to return? How you balance accomplishment, possessions and jealousy so it propels the community forward? Thats rough outline, yet there is lots of “social” genes encoded in online games now.
So what happening with AJAX/Web 2.0 is that web is becoming more reactive, more real-time, more intensive. More game-like. Web 2.0 companies are actively forming game-like communities and obviously are very interested in the knowledge accumulated in games 鈥渟ocial genes鈥. Yet at same time there is no need or interest to carry on 鈥渉ardcore鈥 genes with them. We going to see more of web companies grabbing bits and pieces of game knowledge and integrating it. I鈥檓 more skeptical regarding the reverse process – multi-million MMOG juggernauts adopting something from the web playbook. What traditional gamedevs are (critically?) missing is not specific list of web technologies to adopt 鈥 its whole culture of fast-paced reactivity and flexibility imposed by the web. MMOG culture is built around assumption to ship once per 5y. Web companies 鈥渟hip鈥 every other day 鈥 often on user feedback they just learned last week.
You know, I almost put “modern development methodologies” on there — especially forms of agile development — for something games could learn from the web. But games are starting to embrace scrum and agile methods…
UML is notably ueless at architecting game systems, however — great for planning the flow of technological solutions, but the classic game dev problem isn’t solving the tech, it’s solving the fun.
What I’ve seen happen with use of UML is a commitment to engineering a solution that may be the wrong one; then, since it was so carefully planned, there can be reluctance to remove or change it. You have to be willing to iterate.
I’d add “process maturity” to the list of things that game guys could learn from the web (or more specifically software product development) folks. Every day I read about challenges faced on the gaming side that we faced developing software products back in the 90s (clients and web stuff). Stuff like change and configuration management, requirements management, and developing iteratively.
Heck the other day when I was reading about your game modeling language and I kicked myself thinking … we did exactly this with UML back at Rational.
On the flip side, I think the web folks tend to think of what they as nothing more than creating technology. I’d like to see the web approach their craft as more of a craft and try to make something “beautiful”. It’s a mindset change that could result in changing how most people experience the web.
user content and content sharing … I think that would be a tad hypocritical. Much to the contrary, I’m very interested in what he has in mind. I’m just always suspicious when Web 2.0 is the focus on the discussion and not the product itself. However, his blog post on what 2.0 has to teach games seems pretty right on. I guess in the end I’ll just know if I can be excited when I hear more about the actual game “later this year”. tagged: game, gaming
Areae is a mystery, but is apparently aiming to offer something which synthesizes Web 2.0 and MMOGs. I’m glad to see this. For one, I’ve been talking about the importance of the gap between Web 2.0 and rich media (including MMOGs) for a while (cf this summer 2006 workshop
Ralph Koster has a cool article on his blog calledWhat the Web and Games have to Teach Each Other. As a web guy and a game guy, I found this very interesting and would like to expand on the topic a bit, but no time to do so now. It’ll just have to wait for a future post.
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[杞琞涓涓鏈烘鐨勬瘯涓氱敓浠ゆ垜蹇冩儏涓嶈兘骞抽潤鐨勫洖甯 绋嬪簭鍛樼殑宸ヤ綔What the Web and games have to teach each other 涓ゆ鏂版父鎴忥細Spore鍜孲econd Life 鍚鍫傛姤鍛婏細virtual community鐨勭爺绌跺彇鍚 娴峰VC鏂颁竴杞窐閲戜腑鍥 鍘诲勾鎶曡祫瑙勬ā杈40浜跨編鍏 鎴戠殑骞绘按瑙 Web2.0鐨勬妧鏈湰璐╗IMG ][IMG ]
Raph鈥檚 Website 禄 What the Web and games have to teach each other .oO
搂What the Web and games have to teach each other
Duke Nukem sheds light on brain – Cognitive mapping assisted by both gaming and sleep. via BBC… Mom, can you power-level my avatar for me? – A fascinating the social phenomenon: the digital soccer mom. Via Joystiq…What the Web and games have to teach each other – Web 2.0 meets gaming in Raph Koster’s mind… Dawn Market – A MMORPG Marketplace. Kotaku calls it the Craigslist for online games… I Was an Online Mother – The modern way for men to experience pregnancy is in virtual world Second Life, says SF
Web 2.0 vs./and Videogames Raph Koster lists some importantthings that web design could learn from video game design, and vice versa: Depth. Games often provide something that is simple on the face of it, yet reveals hidden unexpected depths. It鈥檚 implicit in the models games provide. Yet often, a given web service (or even a new application or tool) has no hidden depths. It is
Web 2.0 vs./and Videogames Raph Koster lists some importantthings that web design could learn from video game design, and vice versa: Depth. Games often provide something that is simple on the face of it, yet reveals hidden unexpected depths. It鈥檚 implicit in the models games provide. Yet often, a given web service (or even a new application or tool) has no hidden depths. It is