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By N2H
Welcome to Raph Koster's personal website: MMOs, gaming, writing, art, music, books.

You are all cheaters!

December 28th, 2007

So, there’s an interesting side note to the post I made a while back on cheating, and the discussion surrounding RMT. A whole lot of people seem to think that the sort of info in Internet strategy guides isn’t cheating.

As someone who has been gaming for thirty years, I want to pat these people condescendingly on the head, and tell them to stop trying to make themselves feel better. But they happen to be highly influential bloggers, so I had better refrain from sarcasm (man, am I turning tetchy in my old age or what?). ;)

Here’s how Ten Ton Hammer puts it:

There is a very significant difference between reading a strategy guide and buying money or characters. The former educates you on how to be a better player, sending you out into the virtual wilds to do the work yourself. The latter takes the game out of your hands and supplies you with the end result of the labours. Real money trading (RMT) bypasses the game mechanics taking the player to the reward without experiencing the journey.

In a single player game nobody cares. Your actions don’t affect anyone else. In a MMOG the person who uses RMT services is cheating by giving themselves an unfair advantage over those that are playing by the rules. There is no grey area. It is cheating. Players have a right to be upset about it.

And a similar set of comments from The Common Sense Gamer:

Are game guides like Prima, Thottbot, Allakhazam cheating? No…no they are no because you are not sidestepping a mechanic of a game. Just because you read four or five strategies on how to take down Onyxia does not help you in the act of taking her down. You still have to deal with the mechanic that the game presents to you in order to succeed. Getting information is not introducing an artificial mechanic to the game. It does not give one player an advantage over the other because all players have access to this information from various free and paid sources. The same can be said about RMT…different players can afford differing amounts of gold, and some can’t afford any at all. Having that information available to all players is key to this, because that may not have been the case back in the days of the MUD.

OK, let’s look at the arguments in their proper order.

  • Information is not a mechanic.

What, did you never play Battleship or Stratego? Or Poker?? Or any adventure game?

Information is absolutely a mechanic. Look, I knock game theory often enough, but this is one case where those guys have the terminology and the logic to back it up, too.

The key thing to realize here is that games provide information to you, the player, about the game state. What’s more, they provide it under defined circumstances. Once you have that knowledge, it’s certainly “in the wild” and you can do with it whatever you want, but the game releases it on a schedule and in specific places, by choice.

For example, in variants of Poker, we see differences in how much information is given to other players. In Texas Hold ‘Em, each player sees their hand, each player sees the face-up cards, each player cannot see the other hands. There could easily be a poker variant where players do not see their own hands, but do see everyone else’s. Poker is a game driven heavily by lack of information.

So are role-playing games. RPGs do not give you the location of every spawn in advance, the stats on every weapon in advance, the solution to every quest in advance, and so on. For a reason. Finding the spawn, discovering the stats, solving the quest is part of the game.

Now,we may argue that this part of the game is tedious (”why should I have to click all over the screen to find the hotspot??” is exactly like “why should I have to traipse all over this dungeon to find the specific kobold!”). We may say that the game would be “better” if it provided you a waypoint directly to that location. But that is beside the point — the game chose to hide this info from you, therefore you are not supposed to have it, and having it is cheating.

Any info you get that isn’t presented to you by the game in normal gameplay sequence is not supposed to be available to you.

  • But everyone has access to the info, which makes it OK. This may not have been the case back in the mud days.

So if everyone cheats, it’s OK. :)

Look, just because the info is widely available does not mean that it stops being info presented outside the game context. Let me repeat that:

Any info you get that isn’t presented to you by the game in normal gameplay sequence is not supposed to be available to you.

What’s ambiguous there? It does not include the “but everyone else cheated already” clause.

The reason why Common Sense Gamer and Ten Ton Hammer do not feel the sense of outrage here is essentially generational. In today’s world, the notion of “hidden information” seems more and more ludicrous. In particular, the notion of keeping static data hidden for the purpose of forcing players to discover it seems antique.

Because of this, designers have increasingly simply designed around the assumption that the info will be shared — that players will cheat.

In the case of something like WoW’s Armory, they simply threw up their hands, and instead said “this isn’t cheating anymore” by providing it themselves.

And yet — pushing people through the process of finding items and quests by hand, figuring out things like what a binary search is, and so on, is a valid thing for a game to want to teach a player. We’re losing the ability to teach them those lessons that come from hidden info.

PS, info flow was easier on muds. They were smaller in every sense. Less data to convey, less people to convey it to. Plus, we did have the ability to set up steam-powered “strategy websites” back then.

  • A strategy guide teaches you how to be a better player, but you still have to do the work.

The “work” is figuring out how to be a better player by yourself. The actual killing of the raid mob is, as our programmers like to say, “just typing.”

The vast majority of the content on “strategy” sites consists of:

  1. Item locations and means to obtain.
  2. Solved “builds” of character and gear.
  3. Raid “strategies” which are actually “solutions.”

I’ve talked about the first one already.

A build is not a strategy, it’s a solution.

The last one is important — a raid is a puzzle game. Raids are carefully constructed encounters, where you can think of the enemy as having a rhythmic pattern of attacks. The pattern shifts in response to certain stimuli — certain attacks, stage of the mob’s lifecycle, etc. But it’s a pattern, just like the patterns in a shooter. It is designed to be figured out, mastered, and then made trivial.

Oh, you can mess it up even when you know the solution. And this is why raids are so compelling. The second challenge they offer, besides figuring out the pattern, is coordinating the actions of a team. And doing this in what is essentially a large-scale rhythm game is hard.

In fact, if I had to draw the most extreme analogy, I would say that all raids are just highly elaborate versions of Lunar Lander. You only have so much gas, you can thrust, and you have to try to land there. It is a game of resource management, and of timing. In a raid, you have 20-50 people all able to hit the thrust button, all coming out of a common pool of fuel. And the ground is shaking in a predictable pattern.

A strategy guide that gives you the pattern may not teach you the timing, but it’s giving you info you are supposed to learn the hard way.

  • In a single player game, nobody cares.

Well, you should. You should feel furtive and somewhat shamefaced as you reach for the walkthrough. Now only are you breaking a societal norm, but you are cheating yourself of the education that the game is trying to give you. You are bypassing its carefully constructed lesson plan. You are saying “I’ll take the fish, instead of the fishing lessons, please.”

(But since there increasingly aren’t any single-player games anymore, of course it impacts me. I like Crystal Quest, for example. But the top scores in Crystal Quest on XBLA show me a whole bunch of exploiters. A flaw in the game? Arguably — no, definitely. So what? I still cannot measure myself against other people thanks to the cheaters. The massively parallel game of climbing the ladder is ruined.)

This, of course, is the same thing that pisses people off in MMORPGs where people use RMT to “skip ahead.” Consider this quote from Ten Ton Hammer again:

In a MMOG the person who uses RMT services is cheating by giving themselves an unfair advantage over those that are playing by the rules.

Unfair advantage in what? You sound like there’s some competition going on. But the RPG isn’t actually ranking you in terms of a competition (except in the narrow cases of PvP, and honestly, this exact same reaction has been there in the PvE games — that quote could have come from Everquest; and ranking ladders).

In strict game terms, you shouldn’t get mad because of keeping up with the Joneses — it’s literally “not in the game,” but rather an importation of human psychology. Some level 25 buying a magic breastplate off eBay has no “unfair advantage” over your level 65 in anything at all.

In general, the only “competition” in a PvE MMORPG is self-invented. You’re not competing over getting to a level faster. You’re not competing for spawn points (there are supposed to be enough for everyone). Alas, because this aspect of psychology is also so prevalent, gamemakers have started to put ranking ladders and stuff in, which is kind of a bad idea because we know from the get-go that it’s all exploitable. But the core of an RPG is a non-competitive game.

You shouldn’t be pissed because the RMTer “beat you” to something, you should be saddened that they cheated themselves of an experience.

All of this is just to reinforce my point from earlier. The actual mechanics of all of this stuff — RMT, strategy guides, twinking, etc — it’s all cheating. What has changed around it is primarily cultural.

Now, I am not going to act all moralistic on you. My first significant cheating was when I hacked Colossal Cave, aka the original Adventure, so I could see the storage room where the game spawned all the game objects from. I did it with a steam-powered chainsaw, back in the day when we had to walk uphill in the digital snow, both ways. But I have two points to make there:

  1. I actually learned something in the process.
  2. I knew it was cheating.

Never did beat that game.

*

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181 Responses to “You are all cheaters!”

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  1. VirginWorlds.com - Exploring Massively Multiplayer Games wrote on

    Kramer auto Pingback[...] &middot Blogs &middot MMOs &middot Links &middot Store &middot Login &middot Register Raph Koster - You are all cheaters! http://www.raphkoster.com/2007/12/28/you-are-all-cheaters/ "So, there’s an interesting side [...]

  2. Things Aren't Simple at MMOG Nation wrote on

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  3. The Common Sense Gamer » More on cheating wrote on

    [...] Here, here and here. [...]

  4. WorldIV » Online gaming, commentary… and maybe some coding too! wrote on

    links from Technoratihere, mostly due to the holidays (and my now-unhealthy obsession with Rock Band), but Raph Koster began an interesting thread on cheating over at his blog. This prompted a surprisingly intense response from Common Sense Gamer, and then another Kosterfollowup. In Raph’s original post, he got me fired up about the topic by invoking some gaming history… The thing that’s funny is that yes, of course players regard RMT as cheating. But make no mistake,

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  7. Ramblings of a Rogue wrote on

    Cheating: The Never Ending Debate…

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  9. Into the Web wrote on

    links from Technoratithrew a curveball: Information not provided within the game is cheating.Of course, I disagree. Otherwise this would have been a very boring blog post. The central idea in Raph’s argument is that information is a mechanic. Poker would be a very boring game if everyone knew what cards the other players have. Card counting,

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  11. Total Poker Tutor wrote on

    links from Technoratisource:You are all cheaters!, Raph’s Website What do you think? Please post a comment, thanks!

  12. Is using Thottbot, Wowhead, etc considered cheating? - Glory of War wrote on

    Kramer auto Pingback[...] hasn't yet reached the same point?Raph Koster (of Ultima Online and Star Wars Galaxies fame) thinks so.Personally, I think he's way off base. To whit:QUOTE(Raph Koster)Any info you get that [...]

  13. weblog.probablynot.com » Cheating wrote on

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  14. Raph’s Website » Does static info work anymore? wrote on

    [...] of the interesting questions that came up in the discussions on cheating is basically the issue of whether you can have a game design that limits information flow, in [...]

  15. Van Hemlock wrote on

    links from Technoratiand such like, partly giving myself a few weeks off, and partly wallowing in the throes of a fairly savage bout of Seasonal Blues. All very maudlin and the mood takes me from time to time; dark soulsearching hours in which I wonder whether I’m notjust a big fat cheat, whether I ought to be playing online games at all, and whether I have any business writing about them on the interwebs. Holiday gaming was mostly EVE Online and Guild Wars this year, with both Second Life and City of Villains, my other two current

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    [...] But don’t take my vague summary, read Raph’s full post + discussion. [...]

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    OGRank - Raph Koster: You are all cheaters!…

    With a recent blog post , Raph Koster, founder of the company now developing Metaplace , and formerly game designer for Star Wars Galaxies and Ultima Online, suggests that the majority of MMORPG players are cheater….

  19. Online Poker Here wrote on

    links from Technoratisource:You are all cheaters!

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    [...] studies , game philosopy , social I wrote this as my way to try to summarize how I say the debate on cheating that Raph started on his blog and that got me to actually participate in the discussion quite more than I should ever have time [...]

  21. Shut Up We’re Talking #17 « The Ancient Gaming Noob wrote on

    [...] Cheating - What was it, what is it, what will it be - we scratch the surface and reference Raph, Michael, Tachevert, and Darren in a topic so vast, you need an IMAX theater to appreciate just the [...]

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  23. The wife-aggro.com Podcast wrote on

    links from Technoratithat developers spend a little bit of effort to keep some of the mystery of a game *inside* the game. As opposed to letting 200 odd websites spill the beans regarding this quest or that map point. After recording our show, I came acrossTHIS

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Reader Comments
  1. Gus Mastrapa said on

    The popularity and ubiquity of game guides is a sign of lost trust in game designers. Can I trust this game not to be bugged? Can I trust this game designer to not send me on a wild goose chase, a soul crushing farming expedition or a painfully unfair fight? Most people, through experience, have learned that the answer is no and will look to a guide for the experiences of other players.

  2. theresab said on

    I agree with you as someone working in the game industry. I do wish more people would spend time exploring games and learning about them themselves. But as a person who has very little time to devote to any one game, I can’t imagine trying to play without strategy guides and websites like Thottbot.

    It’s not fun for me to spend all my play time wandering around accomplishing nothing because the quest description says “south of here” and that area is huge. Granted, most MMOs are subscriptions and the whole business idea is to spend time in-game, but without that key “accomplishing something” factor I most likely wouldn’t log in again.

    It seems like so much of “Game Design” these days is making things obtuse and ambiguous. I want to cut through that chaff and just play the freakin’ game, and that’s what having that information available allows me to do.

  3. Peter S. said on

    In a single player game, nobody cares.

    Everyone I know that played single-player RPGs (myself included) avoided strategy guides in order to avoid spoilers. We did care. We’d still hit them when we got stuck or couldn’t figure out how to get the “good” ending, sure, but not with the thought that they were completely kosher.

    (Of course, nowadays the first thing I do if I get a new RPG is hit Gamefaqs and search for “Missable Events / Items” and “Good Ending”, but hey.)

  4. Alex Clarke said on

    Speaking of cheaters, people who work behind the system, people who have a secret ‘in’ or with influence behind the scenes or with s interest vested in things about which the ordinary player has not an inkling, is it true - apropos of nothing in particular - that you are married to a Sony or a SOE executive? I heard that in quite ordinary cocktail chit-chat this Christmas and for a moment felt like the little boy who was told by his parents not only that Santa Claus did not exist but in the Christmas movie showing on the TV in front of him, Viktor Lazlo was actually married to Major Strasser.

  5. Jason said on

    theresab said:

    It’s not fun for me to spend all my play time wandering around accomplishing nothing because the quest description says “south of here” and that area is huge. Granted, most MMOs are subscriptions and the whole business idea is to spend time in-game, but without that key “accomplishing something” factor I most likely wouldn’t log in again.

    Personally, I think if you find yourself unable to play and enjoy a game without using a strategy guide or spoiler site, you should not reward the developer by continuing to pay for their game.

  6. Raph said on
    Excuses, excuses!

    “I cheat because OTHER games I have played have been buggy or bad!”
    “I cheat because it’s too hard and slow to find the thing they sent me to find!”

    I’ll edit and extend this comment over time. :)

  7. Amaranthar said on

    Well, I agree except for one point.
    MMO’s should always consider that players are in competition among themselves. These are supposed to be social games, and thus should include the aspects of social interactions. Competition among the interacting people is as much a part of that as cooperation. It’s human nature, and can’t be surgically removed as long as it’s a social environment.

    Other than that though, I agree completely. Especially with this:

    We’re losing the ability to teach them those lessons that come from hidden info.

    Not only that, a game is cheating players out of entertainment. We want to learn from hidden info. Again, this is an integral part of human nature. Our minds are shaped around this, molded exactly to do this. It is highly entertaining for us, rewarding when we succeed and frustrating when we fail. And in failure, what do we do? We get hooked on solving the problem. We can’t help it. We may give up for more pressing issues or lack of direction (a sin from MMOs), but it’s always there in the backs of our minds to find the answers.

    That brings us to cheating. Yes, God help us, we will cheat at any opportunity. The shortcut gives us the answer.
    When cheating in important things such as survival, we admire it.
    But when cheating in what’s supposed to be friendly competition, then our sense of fair play comes in. Then we start to say, “hey, you cheated”.

    Cheating in itself isn’t a “wrong” thing. It’s cheating against a greater good that is. And as you are pointing out Raph, that’s exactly what players are doing. But more importantly, it’s exactly what game design is not only allowing, but fostering. And people will cheat, that too is a part of human nature.

  8. TheAmazin said on

    I cheat because I’m lazy and my time is too important to run around a zone for 2 hours to look for one single mob. Is that a problem with me, the zone, or the quest?

  9. Raph said on
    I cheat because I’m lazy and my time is too important to run around a zone for 2 hours to look for one single mob. Is that a problem with me, the zone, or the quest?

    Yes.

    It’s a problem with you, because it means you picked the wrong game.

    It’s a problem with the zone, because it wasn’t designed to make the process of finding the mob interesting.

    It’s a problem with the quest, because it isn’t a well-designed quest — “find the mob” should be an interesting puzzle.

  10. Amaranthar said on

    It’s a problem with you, because it means you picked the wrong game.

    It’s a problem with the zone, because it wasn’t designed to make the process of finding the mob interesting.

    It’s a problem with the quest, because it isn’t a well-designed quest — “find the mob” should be an interesting puzzle.

    Ya beat me to it, and I agree. The problem in a nutshell is that TheAmazin’s time is worth more than the game’s play. So, really, it’s got more to do with the game design than with his/her game play choices. But still, playing such a game in the first place seems like a bad call.

    And people play these games by the billions, and cheat by the billions. What’s that say? Should we look yet for the competition?
    (Frankly, it’s obvious on many message boards that players are doing just that.)

  11. Tim said on

    TheAmazin, it’s you - you said it yourself in the post.

    This all does though offer up some interesting potential to think about if one could design to avoid the perceived design weaknesses. Is it a reflection on the whole “people want casual games they can play now and then with out huge time commitment” thing?

    Another random aside. You could almost look at cheat guides/web sites as very well done open source projects - masses of public contributors creating a near-perfect (bug free) system (of information).

  12. GA said on

    In general, the only “competition” in a PvE MMORPG is self-invented. You’re not competing over getting to a level faster. You’re not competing for spawn points (there are supposed to be enough for everyone).

    This is a fine principle, but, in reality, there rarely are enough spawn points. This is sometimes deliberate - e.g. the developers want to limit the rate at which a high-demand drop enters the world for economic reasons. But regardless of the why, competition for spawns is something that affects player time-reward ratios in most non-instanced online worlds that I’ve seen.

    The point about hidden information is a valid one, but I’m not sure what a developer can do about it. Is there a brain-wipe station to erase my memories of my first time through the game, so that my second character isn’t guilty of cheating? (Then again, I occasionally find myself repeating previous characters’ mistakes, so perhaps the advantage of memory is tempered by the disadvantage of imprecise memory? ;))

  13. Raph said on
    Speaking of cheaters, people who work behind the system, people who have a secret ‘in’ or with influence behind the scenes or with s interest vested in things about which the ordinary player has not an inkling, is it true - apropos of nothing in particular - that you are married to a Sony or a SOE executive? I heard that in quite ordinary cocktail chit-chat this Christmas and for a moment felt like the little boy who was told by his parents not only that Santa Claus did not exist but in the Christmas movie showing on the TV in front of him, Viktor Lazlo was actually married to Major Strasser.

    No, I used to be an SOE executive. I left over a year ago though. My wife has never worked for SOE (though she did work for Origin back in the UO days).

  14. Cybercat said on

    Games could themselves bring the players back if they remembered things and gave them a LOT better history of past events. I suffer from an EXTREMELY bad memory, I have trouble remembering what I yesterday much less last week. All those stats of monsters that I might have figured out through repetitive testing of weaknesses could be gone for me in an instant. If games want to keep me from “cheating” they will have to build a custom guide book detailing all past events I’ve had so that I can keep track of everything.

    Keeping track of things back in the day wasn’t so hard, where there were no guidebooks (or they were very small or compilations) because there were only a few nigh impassable or very important points. Take Mega Man; there were only eight bosses (plus a big guy) they each had a single weakness and there was only one or two parts per level that was considered hard. Back then I could keep track of EVERYTHING I needed about all the games I played in a single 80 page spiral bound notebook. These days, an 80 page spiral bound notebook won’t even account for the first “chapter” of most games. If I wrote in the smallest print I could. And squeezed multiple lines into every last white space on each page.

    During the SNES age things expanded rather quickly and by the time the N64 rolled out and the PS1 you would have SIGNIFICANT loses of gameplay (read: value) if you did not pick up a guide book or spend ridiculous amounts of time building a library of scrap books with notes. Not only this, but most gameplay mechanics aren’t revealed in the first few passes anymore. In old games like Final Fantasy 1 there wasn’t three dozen different types of damage, sixteen regular stats, eight types of resists, twelve body slots and 1400 different pieces of equipment. There was maybe one or two new spells and items in each new town you visited, your characters could hold a weapon, armor and maybe an item.

    I think it’s a fact game designers no longer design for the explorer, because in order to find all the items, stats, weak points WITHOUT a guide (built in or store bought) you would most likely be spending upwards of a year or more on each game you bought if you only played that game for at least 4 hours every day. In summary, what I’m trying to say is I think strategy guides are far more of a game mechanic in themselves (not to mention extra revenue).

  15. Raph said on
    This is a fine principle, but, in reality, there rarely are enough spawn points. This is sometimes deliberate - e.g. the developers want to limit the rate at which a high-demand drop enters the world for economic reasons.

    Ah, we’re back to the “specific named gear that is optimal is bad design” problem. :) Because really, in any MMO of decent size, there’s LOTS of spawn points that are deserted. It just happens that they aren’t ones you WANT because of other factors.

  16. Alex Clarke said on

    Ah, well, yes but no. Obviously I withdraw my question then with urbane grace trusting that you will have the good taste never to mention it again. Damn, I wish I hadn’t wasted my question now. I would have asked whether you were prepared to speculate (ha!) on Bioware’s super-secret upcoming MMO partnership with Lucas Arts. No we’ll never know.

  17. Slyfeind said on

    Here’s something I’ve been contemplating for a while. If you get extra information from other players in-game, is that cheating? It seems very much in the spirit of a game to walk into the Goldshire tavern, find a dwarf sitting in the corner (either cybering with a night elf or dueling random newbies who don’t know any better) and ask that dwarf “Do you know where to find Goldtooth?” The dwarf props up his feet and lights his pipe (or rolls his eyes at another clueless newb) and says “Goldtooth can be found in the mines to the south, on the upper level. Take the cliff-side entrance, not the ground entrance.”

    But this isn’t something coded by the devs. This is something that grows organically out of the game, and I think it’s pretty cool. It’s also essentially the same as going on the web and finding the answer on Thottbot or Allakhazam. Does it matter how the information is conveyed? Does the information have to come from the devs, in order for it not to be cheating?

  18. Alex Clarke said on

    There are rewards for completion of a raid or a quest that go beyond the puzzle dynamic and the rewards for solving that puzzle - the physical pay-off and the emotional pay-off, I mean. I am thinking now of ’soft’ rewards that game designers sometimes forget in their eagerness to complete the perfect puzzle - like the positive emotions that come from safely traversing dangerous space or the opportunity to view/interact with rare elements, characters and landscapes or the peer status that comes with fast raid/quest completion. These, I submit, are not formal ‘puzzle solving’ rewards and yet they are rewards nonetheless. I would say that one of the reasons that WoW is so successful, for example, is that their instances are decorated so vividly.

  19. Raph said on
    Alex, a good designer DOES plan for those rewards.

    Slyfeind, on some muds, even doing that was illegal. :) On some quests, an admin would shadow you to make sure that nobody was giving you hints…

  20. Alex Clarke said on

    Oh, and there is another quest reward that comes from ‘cheating’ - or at least circumventing consensus quest-resolution paths - and that is the emotional climacteric that comes with doing something easily that others find hard. How to rate this particular pay-off is a question for the individual conscience.

  21. Peter S. said on

    How about this one…

    “I cheat because I do not respect the game.”

    This would describe me, when I do cheat. Two examples:

    If I ask another player in-game, “Hey, where are these Crawlers I need to kill for this quest?” and hear, “Oh, that quest is bugged,” I am, at that point, hitting the websites. Which quests are broken is hidden knowledge of a type that I do NOT want to figure out for myself.

    If, on the other hand, I decide I don’t like the game but still have a few weeks before my subscription times out, I’m going to become a tourist, meaning I’ll hit the websites and try to see as much of the cool “landmarks” as I can. I’ve stopped caring about the game, in other words.

    Now, one more example of something slightly different: 90% of the time, when I’m on any MMO site, I’m looking at the character info. I’m looking at class ability lists and hitting the class-specific message boards. I’m searching for information that, to me, ought to have been in the instructions (or maybe was, but it’s changed since the booklet was printed).

    Lack of respect for the booklet in the box? Maybe, but I think modern MMOs count on the websites to take the place of (or at least be an extension of) a solid, up-to-date instruction booklet. As much as there are spoilers galore, I think designers are taking advantage of these sites as much as the players are to reveal information to the players even though it is outside the game proper. Patch notes, future additions or changes, developer feedback… some of the information revealed is meant by the designers to be revealed in that way.

  22. Steven "PlayNoEvil" Davis said on

    Raph -

    Boy, you are having “fun” over the holidays!

    So, we should be able to create co-categories of “Cheaters” for each Bartle type:

    1. Achievers vs. RMTers and Power-Levelers and Farming Bots
    2. Socializers vs. Griefers
    3. Explorers vs. Guides & Hints
    4. Killers vs. Bots & other Unauthorized Play Aids

    Thus, the types of cheating we object to reflect our own game play biases. Most MMO game developers tend towards being Achievers and so are more obsessed with RMT-type abuses than other problems. Griefing & Guides are problems that are often “written off” in MMOs.

  23. darrenl said on

    I don’t know…maybe this is a generational thing. All I’m saying is that presenting the player with a strategy (..could be one of many…) to kill a boss does not kill the boss for them…they still have to deal with the game to do that. Asking over general chat where a named mob is for a quest and getting the answer does not complete the quest for you.

    The two definitions you put up there for logic and terminology refer to “perfect information”, and says nothing of whether that information is a mechanic or not. Something like this would give us a hint though:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_mechanic

    http://waxebb.com/writings/gamerhet.html

    For adventure games, yeah, you may be right that getting extra information on the order in which to “pull the levers” or the “sequence of lights” to use to open a door is a cheat…fine….conceded. For that, yeah, you guarantee your success by having that information and you have received an unfair advantage over the game and other players. However, getting information about a quest, or a strategy for a boss in an MMO is not a cheat because you still have to deal with the gameplay and game mechanics presented in order to succeed. Having that information does not guarantee success, does not give you an unfair advantage over the game or other players and therefore cannot be considered cheating.

    If you want a pure MMO in which no information is available then you guys, /points a Raph, need to come up with more dynamic ways of presenting the world and the information to players.

  24. Cybercat said on

    I realized I went on a bit of tangent :p

    To respond to darrenl, a boss guide from any reputable source usually contains enough information to complete the boss challenge. Note the word, complete, as in finish. The only work left resides in the ability of your fingers to follow the pre-written code in order to beat him. In old style Game Genie cheating, you typed a code to get access to new items. If you did not know where those items were, but you got them just by knowing a code I’d consider that cheating. However, as previously stated, the game developers forgot about how much information we are supposed to be keeping track of, and fail to give us any other choice than to rely on standard sets of websites and guides in order to ‘complete’ their games.

  25. darrenl said on

    @Cybercat: give me one Onyxia guide that will give me all of the information I need to take her down by just relying on the ability of my fingers. We had those strats…same as everyone, and it NEVER guaranteed success. Ditto on all of the other MMO bosses that I’ve had the pleasure of spanking. There is a lot more to taking these things down than knowing where to stand.

    …same can be said with quests.

  26. Kami Harbinger said on

    In adventure and puzzle games, I never read guides or ask for hints, unless I’ve been stuck at it for literally days, weeks, months. A couple of Infocom games had puzzles I never could solve, finally had to use an invisiclues, but I think that’s the only time in 3 decades of playing these games. And no, I didn’t need help for the Babel Fish.

    When it comes to RPGs, it used to be that I didn’t use hints at all; Phantasy Star II came with a strategy guide in the book because the dungeons were almost unnavigable and unmappable thanks to the stupid overhanging parallax girders, so like everyone, I used the dungeon maps, but I think that was the only strategy guide I ever used until the late ’90s.

    But RPGs are significantly larger now, and in most cases they are not designed as a coherent whole, so there is rarely enough information to actually complete the game. So at this point, I recognize that I don’t have 80 hours to devote to a game, I maybe only have 40, or 20. To do that, I have to use a guide to plan my way through dungeons, to find the one person in the world I have to click on who’ll advance the plot. That is certainly cheating, and I know it, but bad game design has to take a lot of the blame, too. When the game is designed right from the start (Final Fantasy III-DS, for example), there’s no need for a guide.

    My solution in my own RPGs is to make pseudo-random worlds, put the information to solve the quest in the game, and give the player an ’80s-era gaming experience, back when games didn’t suck.

    However, the experience of MUDS has little to do with MMOs in this regard. Most MUDs were adventure/puzzle games, and those have no gameplay except solving the puzzles, so of course any use of cheats ruins the gameplay. This was a terrible idea, using a game design appropriate only for single-player games in a multi-player world.

    MMOs are generally descended from Dikus, where sharing information didn’t affect the gameplay, because you still had to organize a group to go fight the mobs, and that shared experience is the gameplay; where and when you would find the mobs, and where to get the gear to fight them, that was incidental window dressing. A Diku or WoW’s “campaign game” could just be a series of 10′x10′ rooms with monsters inside, and just let you open the next door when you want, and they’d have the same gameplay.

    This is why URU Live is such a tragic disaster, because it’s an MMO adventure/puzzle game like old-timey MUDs, and so everything in it is geared to solo or small group solving of puzzles, and you can’t share information without ruining the gameplay. This destroys the social aspect which is the whole point of an MMO.

  27. Kami Harbinger said on

    1. Achievers vs. RMTers and Power-Levelers and Farming Bots
    2. Socializers vs. Griefers
    3. Explorers vs. Guides & Hints
    4. Killers vs. Bots & other Unauthorized Play Aids

    That’s very perceptive, Steven, and that explains a lot.

    I’m an explorer, and my attitude towards RMT is that it lets me bypass the boring levelling stuff and get to more content. This attitude of course bugs the crap out of achievers who think their self-worth is measured by how much longer than me they can level-grind, and griefers who get their jollies by harassing low-level underequipped explorers and keeping them from getting anywhere. When these people try to prevent me from using RMT, they’re making me deal with the most boring, banal, horrid part of MMOs: the grind. I’ll just leave instead, go somewhere interesting.

    However, I don’t object to guides, because I would simply never use them in a case where they’d damage my gameplay, and I don’t care how anyone else plays, as long as they let me play my way. I think the ideal of the explorer is to personally see new stuff, so there’s no competitive instinct to prevent anyone else from seeing it, too.

    “Griefing” is just another term for the “gameplay” of killers. There’s no distinction between a killer and a griefer, and they are all sociopaths. The anti-griefer/killer “cheat” is to channel them into PvP instead of annoying decent, honest people, or ban them.

  28. Nabil said on

    I agree with Cybercat’s comments regarding the dearth of information IN the game, which forces the player to look OUTSIDE the game for that information. As it stands, strategy guides aren’t cheating, they’re a PLAY MECHANIC, because that is the only way in the entire game where you find out that you need to jump in place 200 times to get a given item, or talk to the same NPC 50 times to unlock a quest. (The later Final Fantasy games are notorious for this.) The game is designed to be played with a strategy guide.

    While by no means the only reason, part of why strategy guides are popular is because game designers have lost the trust of the player, because the player’s trust that there WILL be enough clues in-game has been abused too many times, and because the player’s trust that solutions WON’T be arbitrary has been abused too many times.

  29. Tholal said on

    I agree with Raph again. But I also agree that it *seems* that a lot of fault lies with the game design. I never looked at or bought a strategy guide for an RPG game until WoW but a large portion of their quest system is clearly designed to be an annoying time sink (for example, the quest chains that have you repeatedly returning to the same camp to kill the next level of mobs) so that I feel I need that extra help sometimes to actually have fun.

    On a slight tangent, I’m kind of old school on the whole overly informative stats issue and long for the days when you had to use a special skill just to find out that the player in front of you was ‘Amazingly Strong’. It seems as if number-crunching has become the focus of MMOs rather than immersive escapism.

  30. Cybercat said on

    Not trying to be rude, but I have to know, why did you not complete boss mobs when you had the guide? The following are from my failed raid list:

    -Game disconnect by an important PC (tank, healer, even dps)
    -Bugged mob (gets “stuck” on something)
    -Lag (see above)
    -Mistargets or miscommunication
    -Server crash
    -Incorrect classes to complete the quest/boss (no healer, not right type of healer, druid instead of priest for example)

    None of these are deviating from the strategy yet they fail. Unfortunately, they all fail because of things OUTSIDE of the game circumstances. All of them. None of them were because we didn’t know the mob would run back to heal if the tank didn’t hold agro of his lieutenant, or that he had a second form, or that we didn’t know he had an AoE breath weapon that did massive fire damage. It was all because of bad code, unexpected network problems, pizza deliveries and things WAY outside of gameplay. The knowledge how how to complete her was already DONE though. You don’t suddenly find out, “Oh shit, I totally didn’t expect the mob to call the minions in the upper level of the dungeon down” or “Wow, that mob has an AoE push-attack that threw everyone into the water!”

    What I’m saying is, the GAME part of the gameplay is already completed by stat guides. What I’m ALSO saying is, I believe the way games work these days with hideous amounts of stats and items and almost no in game way to track them, it’s EXPECTED that players will ‘cheat’, and REQUIRED in MMOs. But you are not conquering new gameplay, tactically, you have already conquered it because you know that doing X or Y will complete it if you do it properly (and without interruption) EVER SINGLE TIME.

  31. darrenl said on

    Good points Nabil, especially regarding the the trust issue…that’s something I haven’t thought about. Although I would argue that these guides are part of a person’s gameplay, not a game or play mechanic.

  32. Alex Clarke said on

    There is a further point. If a player, without tampering with the game coding or employing any kind of programme hack or exploiting a technical bug, does ‘cheat’ - eg. by using ‘out of game’ information resources - should they be penalised? And, if so, how?

  33. Raph said on
    DarrenL:

    All I’m saying is that presenting the player with a strategy (..could be one of many…) to kill a boss does not kill the boss for them

    No, it just does the hard part, which is figuring out HOW to kill the boss. The actual killing is the easy part. Seriously, think about what a raid is like if you come to it completely blind. THAT is what the game actually is (and it’s easily ten times harder, no?)

    The two definitions you put up there for logic and terminology refer to “perfect information”, and says nothing of whether that information is a mechanic or not.

    Feedback from the game is a mechanic. All info from the game comes in feedback, and the designer decides what gets presented and what does not. Information not provided is therefore also a mechanic.

    If you want a pure MMO in which no information is available then you guys, /points a Raph, need to come up with more dynamic ways of presenting the world and the information to players.

    Actually, we’ve had those ways, and players chose to cheat around them instead because cheating was faster and more convenient. ;)

    Nabil:

    As it stands, strategy guides aren’t cheating, they’re a PLAY MECHANIC, because that is the only way in the entire game where you find out that you need to jump in place 200 times to get a given item, or talk to the same NPC 50 times to unlock a quest.

    A) you play bad games B) that sounds like a case where the game developers themselves put out the strategy guide C) I don’t know any MMOs like that.

    Tholal:

    I never looked at or bought a strategy guide for an RPG game until WoW but a large portion of their quest system is clearly designed to be an annoying time sink

    “I cheat because the game is annoying!”

  34. Tuebit said on

    Raph:

    “I cheat because the game is annoying!”

    How about, I employ an alternate approach to increase the fun I receive from playing the game.

    It’s only cheating if, by employing this alternate approach, I decrease the fun or perceived fun of others also playing the game.

    And it’ll only get you banned if, in the long run, use of this alternate approach is likely to cause more monthly subs to be cancelled than subscribed (or in other words, is the Net-Net fun of said alternate mechanic positive or negative for the game’s players in totality).

    RMT might even be grudgingly accepted if it didn’t play havoc with in-game economics and if gold farmers / gold selling spammers weren’t so annoying.

  35. Raph said on
    Tuebit:

    Cheating is often fun. No need to cover up the word “cheating.” Cheating has nothing to do with increasing or decreasing the fun of others. Some games, such as Monopoly and Munchkin, specifically allow certain forms of cheating via a special mechanic, and it can make the game more fun. Some games, like Paranoia, practically mandate it.

  36. Skip said on

    There is only one real currency in every MMO that I’ve played, and that currency is time. Everything from death penalties, to item decay, to rarity of spawns all can be expressed in this currency.

    And this is a real-world transaction. You’re exchanging your real-world time for in-game benefits. So the real design criteria for the developers should be ‘is this content or game mechanic I’m designing worth the time that people will have to spend using it?’

    Any time it’s not, you can’t expect people not to do things that reduce the cost, to the point that it is worth it.

  37. Raph said on
    Skip — yes, of course. But the question is not “why do people cheat” or “why designers are stupid to expect people to want to play their game the way they intended.” The question is “is this cheating?”
  38. Solok said on

    I’m definitely a cheater with no excuses and no apologies. I cheat because it’s my way to overcome my limitations.

    With that out of the way. Limiting the sharing of information seems like a poor mechanic to utilize since one of the major objectives of an MMO is to promote social activity. If player A is looking for the Raphian and shouts for its whereabouts and player B responds with it, that is cheating right? However, that is also promoting community - with one member helping another.

    I I tell a guild member how to find the mystical shard of ignorance because I’ve done it before, is that leveraging community interaction or cheating?

    I think a lot of us (at least me :)) compare these activities to our “real world” experiences. If I know a friend is looking for real estate and I see a nice new home that is under foreclosure I would surely tell him. Similarly, if I knew a friend was looking for the Raphian, I would surely tell him where to find it.

    Good discussion.

  39. Jeff M said on

    Great conversation, everyone :) I’ve always taken a huge “anti-anything external to the game” attitude towards these kinds of discussions, and continuing to see the companies create sites like WoW’s Armory is really disheartening to me.

    I tend to annoy my guild-mates with my most frequently uttered phrase, “Play the game, not the system!” yet it seems to be more and more of a losing battle because most people I come across are more worried about getting the next big thing than enjoying the experience and the journey. Ladders and rankings just exacerbate the problem in my eyes and makes parts of games that aren’t intended to be competitive to lose their focus.

  40. Yeebo said on

    Actually on the “jump in place 200 times” thing, there is a special chicken pet that you can get in WoW by doing the chicken emote 100 or 200 times in front of a particular NPC. LoTRO also has an entire set of emotes that can only be unlocked by doing specific emotes over and over again, or in some cases by getting PCs to do specific emotes to you. I haven’t messed around with the system much, but it’s not documented in game at all. I think it’s pretty much a given that players are expected to hunt these out online.

    More on topic, I think the use of strategy guides became a tradition in MMOs because the great majority of quests in EQ were incredibly badly designed. Without using online information, it was often next to impossible to figure out how to complete a quest, and it was surely impossible to know what quests were worth your time. The great majority of them did little to expand the lore of the game, and were much less rewarding then simply standing in one spot killing rats during the time it took to do them.

    Since then, designers of these games have gradually gotten better at quest design. This is in fact one of the things I most enjoy about LoTRO. The quests often have interesting lore attached to them, many yield useful rewards, and you can actually figure most of them out without resorting to a walkthrough. In LoTRO I will actually spend a good hour beating my head against a quest before giving up and looking online for info, because I know that if I’m not getting it the odds are much better that I am being stupid than that the game designer is stupid.

    Nothing pisses me off more than spending an hour or two trying to figure something out in game, only to look it up and discover that the solution is actually next to impossible to intuit from the information given in game. Unfortunately, until very recently this was the norm among MMO quests. So reliance of strategy guides also became the norm.

    Put another way, good game design discourages players from cheating. Bad game design encourages it. If the majority of players are “cheating” in a game that you design, I seriously doubt that the primary problem lies in the moral fiber of your audience.

  41. Armath said on

    On the “fish versus fishing lessons” analogy: What if I care about cooking the fish instead of catching it?

    In other words, I’m only cheating myself if what I’m giving up has more value for me than what I’m getting. This has to be viewed with the caveat that I probably don’t know (or understand) the acutal values, or the long-term values, and in the context of the rules and norms of the environment. Looking in a book for the answers to a test is only cheating if it’s not an open-book exam.

    The abundance of strategy guides, and their implicit and sometimes explicit acceptance by the game company (links to guides from the official WoW website, anyone?), have made those guides less of a cheat than otherwise. I think that gives more weight than Raph allows to the argument that the guides aren’t *really* cheating. :-)

    Finally, in case you think I’m nitpicking - yeah, I am, kinda sorta. I’m happy to have found this blog (via links from WoW Insider and Massively), and find myself mostly in agreement with our host, and find his posts to be interesting and thought provoking. And Crystal Quest FTW!

  42. darrenl said on

    “No, it just does the hard part, which is figuring out HOW to kill the boss. The actual killing is the easy part. Seriously, think about what a raid is like if you come to it completely blind. THAT is what the game actually is (and it’s easily ten times harder, no?)”

    The actual killing is not easy at all. OK, so you have the strategy in your hands…which usually consists of where to put your healers, tanks, DPS, pullers, etc…placement. It usually has timing information, i.e. when the boss will use the “death debuff”. Yadda yadda. OK, now you have 20-40 people on Skype…now put that into practice. Not easy at all. One boss encounter could take days for a guild to get down right, never mind a whole instance encounter. In most, if not in all cases, we threw away the plan we got from the interwebs and made our own based on what we learned from the experience. Most plans we got, did not fit our style of play and we usually beat the boss better once we understood the dynamic of the encounter.

    Having the plan is one thing…executing is another. True, designing those plans yourself and executing is 10 times harder, granted, but how are you going to control that information and stop it from being part of a person’s gaming experience? More importantly, how are you going to design a game mechanic that does not encourage it? Also, a non-Thottbot world just isn’t possible for most casual gamers. I’ve seen quests that say, “Kill mob X that is to the east of the villiage”. Well, if the village is in the west part of the land, everything is to the frickin east! Are you really expecting casual players to run around for an hour to find mob X? Are they cheating when they look up a general map co-ordinate then exercising the game mechanic and killing him? Not really.

    We must have a different definition of cheating…because for MMOs, I just don’t see how reading someone else’s experience for encounters/quests gives you an unfair advantage, given that you still need to execute on the quest and/or encounter.

  43. Kami Harbinger said on

    Raph said:

    “As it stands, strategy guides aren’t cheating, they’re a PLAY MECHANIC, because that is the only way in the entire game where you find out that you need to jump in place 200 times to get a given item, or talk to the same NPC 50 times to unlock a quest.”
    A) you play bad games B) that sounds like a case where the game developers themselves put out the strategy guide C) I don’t know any MMOs like that.

    You don’t know one of your own MMOs? How often did you have to repeatedly use skills to improve them in Ultima Online? UO skills taking FOREVER to develop is the reason a lot of macrobots got written. UO was the avatar :) of boring, repetitive activity, and things that could only be understood by painfully long analysis which you’d then share with others. It was massively improved in game fun by the cheat sites, and by software to hack the game.

    For that matter, almost all MMOs, certainly all the Diku-likes, are based on something equivalent to clicking on a box 200 times (The Grind).

    Whether that box is obviously related to the possible benefit is irrelevant; it’s still noxious anti-fun gameplay.

  44. Morgan Ramsay said on

    Make cheating a part of the game. Voila! Problem solved.

    darrenl wrote:

    I just don’t see how reading someone else’s experience for encounters/quests gives you an unfair advantage …

    For example, provide players the tools they need to share information about encounters and quests in-game. I mean, roleplaying, if I were a real adventurer in a fantasy world, I’d be researching the quests and tasks assigned to me. I’d be hopping from pub to pub, shop to shop, to find out what I can about what I can expect on my travels.

  45. Boomjack said on

    I respect how Raph “feels” on this issue even though he tries to butter my muffin by calling me “influential” and then becomes a turncoat by writing that he wants to “condescendingly pat me on the head”, but the fact is that anyone who buys gold or characters has an unfair advantage. Raph believes that they don’t, but the fact is that they do. Here is one example of why this is the case.

    I’m level 20. You are level 20. We both want to get into guild ABC because they are a proactive raiding guild filled with superb players. They take into account, as any good progression guild does, what level we are. We are both currently level 20. That is important.

    I buy gold OR have my character powerleveled. In a week I’m level 50. You have worked hard, leveled like mad and you are level 30. The perception that I am better than you, even if we have the same skill (again this is important) is screaming out at guild ABC like 10,000 PETA protesters at a greased pig catching competition. If we have the same skill and my purchase of gold (I could afford better armour/weapons/etc.) pushed me to higher levels (in this case that is important) than you then my cheating benefited me and harmed you.

    Another example: I play by the rules and do not buy gold. I grind and grind and grind to make my virtual bank account soar, but no matter how much I grind I can’t afford that fancy sword that I want because prices are inflated by people who buy gold and spend it in the auction house. It is easier to buy the gold and spend it than to play (earning) the gold and spend it.

    Cheating (buying gold and levels) is an unfair advantage. It DOES affect the “honest” gamer.

    As for information being a mechanic. This is not Battleship or Stratego or Poker. The game does not change the information in a quest from hand to hand or session to session. Once the information is “in the wild” it’s out there. Any developer who doesn’t think that his quest information is going to be all over the Internet is deluded. If you aren’t building the quests with that in mind, well, you failed the players. Your company is selling strategy guides for Pete’s sake. You are charging players for the information!

    To claim that killing the raid mob is “just typing” while finding NPC 123 who was described as being “Somewhere yonder in the Boogalooga plains” as a mechanic is, well, wrong. Sorry Raph. I respect you, but in this case, you’re wrong. Nobody can be right all the time. It reminds me of a quote I happened upon, “I’m never wrong. I thought I was once, but I wasn’t.”

    When I wrote “In a single player game, nobody cares” I was in reference to other players. Do you think that I care if Raph or anyone else cheats at a single player game? I don’t. Why would I? It doesn’t affect me or anyone but the cheater. In a MMOG that is not the case.

    Do I really and truly deep down in my heart care about cheaters? It certainly doesn’t keep me up at night, but perhaps that is because as a veteran in this industry I’ve seen most of the patterns thrown against me before. I don’t need to cheat, though sometimes I like to read a good MMOG guide, especially if one of my comrades at Ten Ton Hammer wrote it. I like to see how other people think that a class should be played or how others would go about attacking a raid problem. It’s interesting to me. I enjoy it, no I love it! I have a passion for this industry that goes beyond writing about it. I’d be part of this even if I didn’t get paid to do it.

    So, thanks Raph for the 15 minutes of fame on your site and thanks for reading what I wrote. We can agree to disagree and leave it at that. That’s what makes the industry so great. We can both pick a side of the fence and be happy on it.

  46. Tuebit said on

    Raph said: Some games, such as Monopoly and Munchkin, specifically allow certain forms of cheating via a special mechanic, and it can make the game more fun. Some games, like Paranoia, practically mandate it.

    You seem to be defining “cheating” as “anything labelled cheating,” which is just silly. If the game specifically allows it, its not cheating (regardless of how its represented in the rules).

    The dictionary and common usage, would have me believe that cheating must involve to an attempt to defraud or swindle or gain an advantage by breaking the rules. In all definitions I’m aware of, you’re depriving someone else of something? Can you think of an example of cheating that does not ultimately deprive another?

    Raph wrote: “Cheating has nothing to do with increasing or decreasing the fun of others.”

    In this context, cheating has everything to do with depriving others of fun … in the case of MMO, there are only two things you can deprive someone of … fun and possibly time.

    Another strict (but unhelpful) definition would be “any action not permitted by the EULA” or something like that. But in the end, the EULA is just an expression of the company’s desire to maximize its value.

    Cheating (as in depriving other players of fun) is anathema to fun. Subscriptions / revenue are driven (in part) by fun. Games that are more fun are likely to do better in the long run. Value is determined (in part) by revenue. The EULA (and therefore the very technical definition of cheating) is just a reaction to this chain … trying to prevent players from engaging in activities that decrease fun.

  47. Raph said on
    “As it stands, strategy guides aren’t cheating, they’re a PLAY MECHANIC, because that is the only way in the entire game where you find out that you need to jump in place 200 times to get a given item, or talk to the same NPC 50 times to unlock a quest.”

    I don’t know any MMOs like that.

    You don’t know one of your own MMOs? How often did you have to repeatedly use skills to improve them in Ultima Online?

    No, no, you misread. In UO you KNEW you had to do that. :) The question was whether you had to look up the “jump in place 200 times” piece.

    Boomjack:

    I respect how Raph “feels” on this issue even though he tries to butter my muffin by calling me “influential” and then becomes a turncoat by writing that he wants to “condescendingly pat me on the head”, but the fact is that anyone who buys gold or characters has an unfair advantage. Raph believes that they don’t, but the fact is that they do.

    You’re mixing up two different things there. The (tongue-in-cheek) remark about “patting on the head” was in regards to the assertion that strategy guides are not cheating — not the RMT issue.

    On your two examples — the “competing to get into a guild game” isn’t Blizzard’s game. It’s the guild’s game. They are the ones setting the rules. It’s an emergent game.

    I completely agree on the RMT effect on inflation. But I already commented that this is because of how the incentive structure is broken. :)

    As for information being a mechanic. This is not Battleship or Stratego or Poker. The game does not change the information in a quest from hand to hand or session to session. Once the information is “in the wild” it’s out there. Any developer who doesn’t think that his quest information is going to be all over the Internet is deluded. If you aren’t building the quests with that in mind, well, you failed the players. Your company is selling strategy guides for Pete’s sake. You are charging players for the information!

    Anecdote: the UO team actually rebelled at the idea of having a strategy guide. It was a HUGE controversy on the team, because the team saw it as cheating.

    Of COURSE it’s going to be all over the Net, the same way that walkthroughs of adventure games are all over the Net. It’s cheating your way through the adventure game to use the walkthrough, and it’s also cheating to use the quest walkthrough in an MMO. There’s no difference. And yes, of course designers just assume that it’ll be cheated. I don’t see what the disagreement is, except that I use the word “cheat” and you don’t. :)

    To claim that killing the raid mob is “just typing” while finding NPC 123 who was described as being “Somewhere yonder in the Boogalooga plains” as a mechanic is, well, wrong.

    Hang on — I didn’t say that the killing of the mob isn’t a mechanic too. Of course it is. Finding is one mechanic, and killing is another, and discovering the strategy to kill Onyxia is another. Bypassing any one of them would be cheating.

    I don’t need to cheat, though sometimes I like to read a good MMOG guide, especially if one of my comrades at Ten Ton Hammer wrote it. I like to see how other people think that a class should be played or how others would go about attacking a raid problem. It’s interesting to me. I enjoy it, no I love it! I have a passion for this industry that goes beyond writing about it. I’d be part of this even if I didn’t get paid to do it.

    So, of course, I picked the word “cheating” precisely because of the emotional associations that players have with it. But I reiterate — I DON’T attach those visceral nasty feelings to it. A designer cannot afford to, IMHO. Cheating isn’t “bad,” it’s an orthogonal solution to a problem. In the book, I used the phrase “An Alexandrine solution to a Gordian problem.”

    You don’t get the benefit of what the game system was trying to teach you, but