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By N2H
欢迎raph koster的个人网站： mmos ，游戏，写作，艺术，音乐，书籍。
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What thoughtful criticism of videogames looks like 什么有见地的批评，游戏看起来像

June 26th, 2007 (Visited 2950 times) Tags: 2007年6月26日 （访问了2950倍）标签：

You’d think there weren’t many examples.您认为有没有很多的例子。 And you’re right.和您的权利。 But when you do find it, it looks like what Stephen Totilo and N’Gai Croal are doing with their dissection of Manhunt 2 (The MTV version: part one , part two ; the Newsweek/MSNBC version: part one, part two , hopefully more to come).但是当你这样做找到，它看起来像什么斯蒂芬totilo和n'gai croal正在做的与他们的解剖追捕2 （在MTV版本： 第一部分 ，第二部分 ;新闻周刊/ MSNBC的版本： 第一部分，第二 部分 ，希望更多的来） 。

Not having played the game, it’s near impossible for me to comment on the game itself.没有扮演游戏，它的附近是不可能的我评论游戏本身。 I’ve publicly commented that much of the Rockstar output seems to me to simply enjoy pushing buttons and boundaries, rather than really reach for social commentary or redeeming value of any sort.我已经公开评论说，大部分的的Rockstar输出以我看来，根本享受推按钮和边界，而非真正达到为社会评或挽救的价值，任何形式的。 Today at lunch, I had the odd experience of describing Manhunt (the original) to a table full of people — and oddly, the description sounding more artistic than the actual game was.今天在午餐会上，我曾多的经验，描述追捕 （原）表挤满了人-和奇怪的是，描述冠冕堂皇的更多的艺术比实际的比赛。

Lots of comparisons to film are used in the discussion between Croal and Totilo; the question comes up as to whether Manhunt 2 is comparable to a Bonnie and Clyde , a Natural Born Killers — or whether it’s just the equivalent to a snuff film . In the end, we probably won’t get to decide, because pre-emptive censorship (both from the governmental and the platform-holder side) means that debates like the one that Croal and Totilo are having simply won’t be had.大量的比较，电影是用在讨论中之间的croal和totilo ;的问题，来作为是否追捕二是可媲美一邦妮和克莱德 ，一个天生杀人 -或者是否这只是相当于一个鼻烟电影。在最后，我们可能不会去决定，因为先发制人的检查（无论从政府和平台的持有人方）指的辩论一样，一个croal和totilo有根本不会考虑。 And that in itself seems to leave us all impoverished, regardless of the quality of the game.和，这本身似乎离开我们所有的贫困，不论高质量的游戏。

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25 Responses to “What thoughtful criticism of videogames looks like” 25日的反应， “有什么深思熟虑的批评，游戏看起来像”

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  1. Level Up wrote on June 28th, 2007 at 10:08 am : 水平上写道2007年6月28日在上午10时08分 ：

    [...] N’Gai Croal EGO…trip: Manhunt 2; Lucasarts; WiiWareSTH…It’s like we’re in their headsFPS…New mouse-like add-on for PS3 shooters [...] [ … … ] n'gai croal …自我的旅程：追捕2 ; LucasArts的; wiiwaresth … …它的一样，我们正处在他们的headsfps …新的鼠标一样，添加-关于为PS3的射手[ … … ]

  2. Multiplayer Blog » Blog Archive » Video Exclusive: Nintendo’s Reggie Fils-Aime (Part Three) — “Manhunt 2,” Friend Codes, Hiring An Assistant wrote on July 28th, 2007 at 4:04 pm : 多人的博客»博客存档»视频专访：任天堂的雷吉费尔-玛奈克（三 ） -“追捕2 ， ”朋友的守则，聘请一名助理写就2 007年7月2 8日在下午4时0 4分：

    [...] you regret courting Rockstar to to get “Manhunt 2” on your [...] [ … … ]你后悔讨好的Rockstar ，以获得“追捕2 ”在您的[ … … ]

Reader Comments 读者评论
  1. Patrick said on June 26th, 2007 at 9:27 pm : 帕特里克说， 2007年6月26日在下午9点27分 ：

    Heard that!听说！ Hey, have you played Mollendustria’s new game?嘿，你有发挥的mollendustria的新游戏呢？

  2. Ola Fosheim Grøstad said on June 27th, 2007 at 2:36 am : 法定语文事务署fosheim grøstad说， 2007年6月27日在上午02时36分 ：

    You feel impoverished for not having yet-another-pulp-asylum-game-didn’t-we-do-that-in-the-1980s made by a we’ll-look-cool-by-shocking-parents-developer?您觉得贫困没有尚未另一纸浆庇护-游戏- didn't -我们办得到，即-在- - 20世纪80年代提出的由一个成员之后-看-酷- -令人震惊的父母开发？

    I’ve got some interesting books you might want to borrow…我已经得到了一些有趣的书籍，您可能想要借…

  3. David (Tal) said on June 27th, 2007 at 4:04 am : 朱（塔尔）说，对2007年6月27日在上午04时04分 ：

    The discussion about Manhunt 2 is fascinating.讨论追捕二是引人入胜。 Whether or not the game deserves the ratings that it’s getting, the whole thing bothers me on a core level.是否或不是游戏，值得收视率，它的获得，整个事情困扰我的一个核心的水平。 I’m an adult; if I want to watch an NC-17 movie or read a really racy book I can do that and no one will bat an eye.我是成人;如果我想观赏一数控- 17电影或读一本书真的racy我可以这样做，没有人会蝙蝠1眼。 Yet if I wanted to experience a game like this I wouldn’t be able to, because someone has said it’s “not safe” for my consumption.但如果我想的经验，一个游戏一样，这点我不能够，因为有人说这是“没有安全”为我的消费。

    I can understand and respect why retailers might not want to devote shelf space to AO titles.我可以理解和尊重，为什么零售商可能不愿意投入的货架空间，以敖冠军。 That’s fine, it’sa free market.这很好，这是自由市场。 It opens the door for specialty retailers who will sell those titles.它开启了一扇大门，为专业零售商谁将出售这些书籍。 But it annoys me that Sony, Nintendo, and Microsoft feel the need to block publication of the titles for their platform.但annoys我说，索尼公司，任天堂，微软认为有必要阻止出版的标题为他们的政纲。 There’s not a reason for that other than pandering to the media and the politicians and the Jack Thompsons of the world, at least not that I can see.有没有理由，除了迎合媒体和政客和杰克thompsons的世界，至少不是我可以看到。 All the platforms include parental controls, and the infrastructure is there and it does work, if people set it up and use it.所有平台，包括家长控制，和基础设施是有和它的工作，如果有人设置和使用它。 Shouldn’t that be enough?不应该认为是不够的？ Besides, let’s be honest here, the majority of current consoles were probably not really bought for children, but rather for adults who grew up playing games.此外，让我们诚实这里，大多数当前游戏机大概没有真正买的儿童，而是为成人谁成长起来的玩游戏。

  4. Cameron Sorden said on June 27th, 2007 at 6:34 am : 金马伦sorden说， 2007年6月27日在上午06时34分 ：

    Given that it’sa game, wouldn’t it be dependent on how the content is consumed by the player when determining how artistic it is?鉴于这是游戏，不会，它依赖于如何消耗的内容是由球员时，决定如何，这是艺术？ All the thoughtful prose and deep-rooted symbolism in the world won’t help the game if the player fast-forwards through the story and just has fun running around killing people.所有经过深思熟虑的散文和根深蒂固的象征，在世界上，将不利于游戏，如果玩家快速前进的故事，和刚才的乐趣四处杀害人民。

    Granted, that’sa criticism you could level at any attempt at making a meaningful game with violence in it.理所当然的， that'sa的批评，您可以在水平的任何企图使一个有意义的游戏与暴力事件。 I guess the question you have to ask is whether the game forces you to think about the reasons behind the violence and the consequences or meaning of the deaths, or whether it simply allows you to enjoy a visceral thrill of killing.我猜想你有问题想问的是，是否游戏势力，你想想背后的原因暴力和后果，或含义，死亡，或是否干脆让您享受内脏刺激的杀戮。 That, in my mind, would be the difference between a snuff film and a work of art that addressed the concept of death on some level. ，在我心目中，将区别鼻烟电影和艺术作品的，处理的概念，死亡就在一定程度上。

  5. Raph said on June 27th, 2007 at 7:43 am : raph说， 2007年6月27日在上午07时43分 ：
    You feel impoverished for not having yet-another-pulp-asylum-game-didn’t-we-do-that-in-the-1980s made by a we’ll-look-cool-by-shocking-parents-developer?您觉得贫困没有尚未另一纸浆庇护-游戏- didn't -我们办得到，即-在- - 20世纪80年代提出的由一个成员之后-看-酷- -令人震惊的父母开发？

    No, I feel impoverished by the fact that the debate in the articles cannot happen more widely.没有，我觉得贫困的事实，即辩论中的文章不能发生更广泛。

  6. Jim said on June 27th, 2007 at 7:45 am : 吉姆说， 2007年6月27日在上午07时45分 ：

    Croal and Totilo did in fact have their debate — this in spite of government censorship of the game. croal和totilo所做的，其实他们的辩论-这在，尽管政府的新闻审查的游戏。

    Having young sons of an impressionable age, I can’t say I’m all that unhappy that something like this isn’t going to show up on store shelves.有年幼的儿子一个impressionable年龄，我不能说我所有的不愉快，有些想这是不打算出现在商店的货架上。 If this economy were such that I or my wife could watch the kids 24/7 (We can’t. We work.) I wouldn’t even mind the reasoning that says “parents are 100% responsible for what their kids get into”.如果这个经济等我或我的妻子可以观赏孩子们24 / 7 （我们不能，我们的工作。 ） ，我不会介意，甚至推理说： “父母是百分之一百的责任是什么他们的孩子进入” 。

    As it is, we have the debate, but not the game, which is really the healthiest outcome from this drama.因为它是，我们有辩论，而不是游戏，这是真正健康的结果，从这个话剧。

    Let me know if the debate gets censored, at that point I’ll be up on the barricades with you.让我知道，如果辩论获得截尾，在这一点上我会就设置路障与您联系。 Until then, ESRB-AO works for me.直到那时， esrb敖工程，对我来说。

  7. Raph said on June 27th, 2007 at 7:50 am : raph说， 2007年6月27日在上午07时50分 ：

    What, Jim, you want journalists (who got lucky, in terms of being able to play the game) to be the only ones who get to have the debate?是什么，吉姆，你想记者（谁运气好，在条款能够玩游戏）成为唯一的谁得到有辩论？

  8. Lacero said on June 27th, 2007 at 8:31 am : lacero说， 2007年6月27日在上午8时31分 ：

    If that stops 12 year old children joining in then I do, but that’s pretty much the issue isn’t it?如果该站12岁的儿童参加在的话，我这样做，但这是相当的问题，是不是？

  9. moo said on June 27th, 2007 at 9:02 am : 卢武铉说， 2007年6月27日在上午09时02分 ：

    In response to David, let me defend Nintendo in particular for their decision not to let it be released.在回应国宝，让我保卫任天堂特别是为他们的决定不让它获得释放。 They have invested a lot of effort and money to build up the reputation of the Wii (like its predecessors) as a “family-friendly” console, and now they have to protect their brand.他们投资了很多的努力和金钱来建立的声誉，该wii （如它的前辈）作为一个“家庭友善”的控制台，而现在他们要保护自己的品牌。 A game like Manhunt 2 could potentially damage their reputation and draw a lot of criticism from politicians, right-wing family groups, etc. The negative publicity could easily outweigh whatever money they might have made off of the release of Manhunt 2.一个游戏一样，追捕2有可能损害他们的声誉和借鉴了很多的批评，从政治家，右翼家庭团体，等负面宣传，很可能得不偿失，无论金钱，他们可能会作出起飞释放追捕2 。

    I’ve been told that to release games for these consoles, you have to sign a contract with the console manufacturer which basically includes a clause that says they can block the release of your game if they want to.我一直在说，释放这些游戏控制台，你必须签署合同，与控制台制造商基本上包括了一项条款，说他们可以阻止释放您的游戏，如果他们希望。

    Rockstar has been pushing the limit of bad taste for quite a while now; at the beginning of production of Manhunt 2 they were well aware that they would not be able to release it without the blessing of Sony, Nintendo et al.有Rockstar一直在推动的限制低劣品味相当长的一段时间，现在在开始生产的追捕二，他们清楚知道，他们将无法将它释放，没有祝福，索尼，任天堂等人。 They pushed it just a little too far; they gambled, and they lost.他们推它只是一个小太远，他们赌博的，他们失去了。

    Personally I won’t shed a tear for Manhunt 2 (in addition to being as morally bankrupt as you can get, the first game was so pathetic–in gameplay terms–that I gave up on it after about 15 minutes).我个人将不会棚一撕为追捕2 （在除了要在道德上破产，你可以，第一场比赛是如此可悲-在游戏条件，我放弃了它后约15分钟） 。 It is disturbing though that the Thought Police of various countries are so happy to jump up and down on a tasteless videogame like Manhunt 2, but not equally tasteless movies like Hostel or whatever.这是令人不安的，虽然思想警察各国都高兴跳转向上和向下就一无味的游戏一样，追捕二，但不是同样无味的电影一样，宿舍或什么。

    (Side note: did you know that in the US, the movie “Scarface” was initially given an X rating by the MPAA? The studio made cuts to the movie and re-submitted it *3 times* and each time, the MPAA came back with an X rating. Finally the studio went to the media, dragged the MPAA through arbitration and managed to make a deal with them to give the movie an R rating. The version that the studio put out to theatres with the R rating, was actually the original, un-cut version. Maybe 20 years from now, society’s tolerances for gruesome stuff in video games will have loosened up enough for an equivalent breakthrough). （附注：你知道在美国，电影“ scarface ”最初给予一个X评级由MPAA的？演播室作出削减到电影和重新提交它的3倍* *和每一次， MPAA的来回到同一个X评级，最后该工作室到媒体，拖了MPAA的通过仲裁和管理作出处理，以便让电影的R评级。版本工作室提出，以剧院与科研评价，是其实原来，联合国削减版本，也许从现在起20年内，社会的公差为可怕的东西在视频游戏将有松动了足够的等效突破） 。

  10. Morgan Ramsay said on June 27th, 2007 at 11:32 am : 摩根拉姆齐说， 2007年6月27日在上午11时32分 ：

    David wrote:大卫写道：

    I can understand and respect why retailers might not want to devote shelf space to AO titles.我可以理解和尊重，为什么零售商可能不愿意投入的货架空间，以敖冠军。

    I can buy Hostel and Saw at Target but I can’t buy Manhunt 2?我可以购买旅馆和看到的目标，但我可以不买追捕2 ？ Just because it’sa game?只是因为这是游戏？ That’s just silly.这只是愚蠢的。

    moo wrote:总统写道：

    They [Nintendo] have invested a lot of effort and money to build up the reputation of the Wii (like its predecessors) as a “family-friendly” console, and now they have to protect their brand.他们[任天堂]已投资了很多的努力和金钱来建立的声誉，该wii （如它的前辈）作为一个“家庭友善”的控制台，而现在他们要保护自己的品牌。

    Nonsense!胡说八道！ Here are some not-so-”family-friendly” games that have been released, or are going to be released, for Wii.这里有一些不那么“家庭友善”的游戏，已被释放，或将要公布， wii 。

    Call for Heroes: Pompolic Wars, Call of Duty 3, CSI: Hard Evidence, Far Cry: Vengeance, The Godfather , Mortal Kombat: Armageddon , Red Steel, Red Steel 2, Resident Evil 4 , Resident Evil: The Umbrella Chronicles , Scarface , Splinter Cell: Double Agent , Ultimate Duck Hunting, and WWE SmackDown vs. Raw 2008.呼吁英雄： pompolic战争，使命的召唤3 ， CSI犯罪现场：确凿证据，相距甚远：报复， 教父 ， 真人快打：世界末日 ，红钢，红钢二， 驻地邪恶四 ， 驻地邪恶：伞方志 ， scarface ， 细胞分裂：双重间谍 ，最终鸭狩猎，和wwe smackdown与原料2008年。

  11. Jim said on June 27th, 2007 at 8:15 pm : 吉姆说， 2007年6月27日在下午8时15分 ：

    We seem to be having the debate too.我们似乎是有太多的辩论。 ; ）

    In a bit of a vacuum, it’s true.在一个位元的真空中进行的，它的真实。 But I’d be surprised if, even in the face of all the difficulties, you weren’t able to score a copy of the game yourself.但我要感到惊讶，如果，即使是在面对种种困难，您无法评分的副本游戏吧。 We can’t even control jihadi sites on the web — completely controlling the release of an uncut version of this game?我们甚至无法控制圣战网站上的Web -完全控制释放一u ncut版本的此游戏？ Unlikely.不大可能。

    I’m with Lacero on this one — I’ll agree there’sa cost to limiting Manhunt 2’s release.我与lacero就这一个-我会同意有成本限制追捕2的释放。 But does that outweigh the benefit of keeping it out of the hands of 5-year-olds, and the benefit of showing society at large is against this kind of thing?但是，这是否得不偿失的利益，保持它的手中， 5岁的儿童，以及有利于显示社会大众是反对这种事情？ I respectfully submit that my vote is no, and my vote should count.我认为我的投票是没有，我的投票应计数。 So should yours.因此，应你的。 Let’s see who wins, and run with that.让我们看看谁胜，和运行。

    Morgan — visual-only media don’t give you the dubious opportunity to act out (and with the Wii controller, with considerable vigor) the graphic slaughter of fellow humans.摩根-视觉，只有媒体不给你可疑的机会，采取行动了（与w ii控制器，具有相当的活力）图形屠宰研究员人类。 “Just because it’sa game” overlooks this important distinction. “就因为这是游戏”忽略了这个重要的区别。

  12. Morgan Ramsay said on June 27th, 2007 at 9:34 pm : 摩根拉姆齐说， 2007年6月27日在下午9点34分 ：

    Jim wrote:吉姆写道：

    I’ll agree there’sa cost to limiting Manhunt 2’s release.我会同意有成本限制追捕2的释放。 But does that outweigh the benefit of keeping it out of the hands of 5-year-olds, and the benefit of showing society at large is against this kind of thing?但是，这是否得不偿失的利益，保持它的手中， 5岁的儿童，以及有利于显示社会大众是反对这种事情？

    First of all, if the game were rated M (as it should be) then 5-year-old children should a) be prohibited from purchasing the product and b) be prohibited from playing the game by a responsible adult.首先，如果游戏被评为米（应该） ，然后5岁的儿童应一）禁止从购买的产品和B ）被禁止玩游戏，由一个负责任的成人。 There goes that “protect the children” pseudo-defense right out the window!有云： “保护儿童”伪防卫权出窗口！ And as for depriving me of my natural right to choose what media to which I want to be exposed?至于剥夺了我，我自然有权选择什么媒体，而我不想被暴露？ I’m sorry, but if you’re saying that I should simply “move along” with my knees bent to the vocal minority, you’ve got another thing coming, pal.我很抱歉，但如果您说我应该是简单的“沿”与我的双膝弯曲声乐少数人，您有另一件事来， PAL和。

    Jim wrote:吉姆写道：

    Morgan — visual-only media don’t give you the dubious opportunity to act out (and with the Wii controller, with considerable vigor) the graphic slaughter of fellow humans.摩根-视觉，只有媒体不给你可疑的机会，采取行动了（与w ii控制器，具有相当的活力）图形屠宰研究员人类。 “Just because it’sa game” overlooks this important distinction. “就因为这是游戏”忽略了这个重要的区别。

    1. 1 。 Movies are not visual-only.电影是不是视觉只。

    2. 2 。 Waving a little toy controller around in the air is hardly “acting out” murder.挥舞着小玩具控制器左右，在空气中是很难“署理”谋杀罪。

    3. 3 。 There are hordes of games for Wii and other platforms that enable players to commit acts of violence against other humans.有成群的游戏， wii和其他平台，使球员犯下的暴力行为，对其他人类。 And yet, whaddya know, they’re not banned from sale in up to four major countries and barred from distribution.然而， whaddya知道，它们就不会禁止出售，在多达四个主要国家和禁止分布。

  13. Jim said on June 27th, 2007 at 10:31 pm : 吉姆说， 2007年6月27日在下午10时31分 ：

    Morgan-摩根-

    If you read through my previous posts you’ll find most of this already, but here it is again for convenience’s sake.如果你翻看我以前的职位，您可以找到最本已，但在这里，这是再次为方便起见。

    - Working parents just aren’t around to protect kids 24/7. -外出工作的父母只是不靠近，以保障孩子2 4/ 7 。 Constantly policing kids just isn’t in the cards, when they’re out of our homes and/or our sight.不断维持治安的孩子根本就不在该卡，当他们走出我们的家园和/或我们的视线。 Keeping them in our homes and in our sight just isn’t consistent with working life.使他们在我们的家园和在我们的视线刚才是不相符的工作生活。 People have gotten together politically and decided there needs to be some level of community help in the essential endeavor of raising the next generation.人民获得了一起，并决定在政治上必须有某种程度的社区帮助，在必要的努力，提高下一代。 There are costs, but those don’t outweigh the benefits.有成本，但这些不大于好处。 (I used to hold your point of view, but that changed 180 degrees when I had kids myself.) （我用持有你的观点，但改变了180度时，我的孩子自己） 。

    - It’s very unlikely you won’t be able to get ahold of a copy of the uncut version of the game via the internet. -这是不太可能，您将无法获得阿霍德的一份拷贝的u ncut版本的游戏通过互联网。 The current distribution limitations are a useful obstacle for my purposes, and not an insurmountable one for yours; it’sa useful compromise.电流分布的限制，是一个有用的障碍，为我的目的，而不是一个不可克服的一适合您的网站;这是有益的妥协。

    - I suggested leaving this up to democratic processes. -我建议，离开这点，以民主进程。 My vote should count, so should yours (so should everyone else’s), and we run with that.我的投票应该计数，因此，应你的（使每个人都应该其他人的） ，和我们来说，这一点。 I share your distaste for the vocal minority… but the vocal majority is a different matter entirely.我同意您的厌恶少数民族声乐… …但声乐多数是一个完全不同的问题。

    - Sorry, “visual-and-sound-only”, not “visual-only”. -抱歉， “视觉和声音的唯一” ，而不是“视觉唯一的” 。 You’re splitting hairs here.您分裂毛发在这里。 Interaction is the important aspect.互动是重要的一环。

    - Sorry, “miming out” rather than “acting out”. -抱歉， “ m iming出来” ，而非“代理” 。 Again, hair-splitting.再次，头发分裂。

    - I’m the sort to merrily ride down fleeing Celts and Scythians with Roman cavalry, myself. -我的排序，以m errily坐下来逃走，凯尔特人和s cythians与罗马骑兵，我自己。 Or shadowbox various humanoids until their healthbar disappears on World of Warcraft.或shadowbox各种humanoids ，直至其healthbar消失，对魔兽世界。 Yet these are not banned, because there are important distinctions between these game experiences and the Manhunt 2 experience.然而，这些所不禁止的，因为有重要的区别，这些游戏的经验和追捕2经验。

    Have a look at the justifications the ratings folks are releasing with their verdicts.有一个看的理据收视率的乡亲是释放他们的判决。 They make very specific distinctions between Manhunt 2 and other games out there.他们作出非常具体的区分追捕2和其他游戏在那里。 Have a look at the debates from people who’ve actually played the game, to see if they contradict the justifications and distinctions.一看，在辩论中，从人民谁了，其实扮演的游戏，看看他们有矛盾的理据和区别。 Have a look at the press releases from Rockstar, to see if they say the ratings folks are libelling their game.一看在新闻稿的Rockstar ，看看他们说，收视率的乡亲是libelling他们的游戏。 I haven’t seen anything yet that contradicts the ratings folks, have you?我还没有看到什么，但矛盾的收视率的乡亲们，你呢？

    Although if you fall back to the line “Well, if this has such stringent rating and distribution limitations then that should too” … I’ll be forced to agree with you.虽然如果你属于回到线“好吧，如果这有这样严格的评级和分布的限制，那么应该过于” … …我将被迫同意与您联系。 ; ） Unless some thoughtful and convincing distinctions are made, of course.除非一些经过深思熟虑的和令人信服的区别是，当然。

  14. Morgan Ramsay said on June 28th, 2007 at 1:29 am : 摩根拉姆齐说， 2007年6月28日在上午01时29分 ：

    Jim wrote:吉姆写道：

    Working parents just aren’t around to protect kids 24/7.外出工作的父母只是不靠近，以保障孩子24 / 7 。

    That’s not an excuse for irresponsible parenting.这不是一个借口，是不负责任的亲职教育。 My parents used to take my sister’s keys to her vehicle away when necessary.我的父母用来把我妹妹的钥匙，她离开车辆，必要时。 It’s certainly not an impossible expectation that responsible parents would not leave media (eg, porn, violent movies and games) within reach of their children or their children’s friends before they leave for work.这肯定不是一个不可能的期望， 负责家长不会离开媒体（例如，色情，暴力电影和游戏）达到他们的子女或他们的子女的朋友之前，他们离开工作。 It’s no more impossible than expecting responsible parents to not leave loaded firearms within arm’s reach of their children.它的并没有更不可能比预期负责任的家长不会离开装货枪支ARM的达到他们的子女。 Again, the “protect the children” pseudo-defense is thrown out the window.再次， “保护儿童”伪国防部抛出窗口。

    It’s very unlikely you won’t be able to get ahold of a copy of the uncut version of the game via the internet.它的不太可能，您将无法获得阿霍德的一份拷贝的uncut版本的游戏通过互联网。

    First of all, I know people at Rockstar, and I know Rockstar is extremely secretive to the point of xenophobia.首先，我知道，人在的Rockstar ，我知道的Rockstar是非常秘密，以点的仇外心理。 The only way such copies of products are leaked is by insiders, and despite what the media and critics think of Rockstar, the people who work there are incredibly honest, worthy of the highest respect, and can be expected to maintain their silence without suspicion.唯一的出路，例如复制产品泄露是由内部，尽管媒体和批评者认为的Rockstar ，人民谁工作有令人难以置信的诚实，值得最崇高的敬意，并可以预料，以维持他们的沉默，没有猜疑。 Nobody (except for those lucky journalists) will likely be able to play the original game until the ratings systems are no longer corrupted by political subterfuge and bureaucratic masturbation.没有人（除了那些幸运的记者）可能会能够发挥原有的游戏，直到评级系统已不再是损坏的政治花招和官僚自慰。 Not to mention that Sony, Nintendo, and Microsoft do not publish AO-rated games for whatever reason, so there certainly will not be any available ISOs for those platforms.更不用提，索尼，任天堂，微软不发布傲额定游戏，不论基于何种原因，所以当然不会有任何可用的国际团结，为这些平台。

    I suggested leaving this up to democratic processes.我建议离开这个最多的民主进程。

    That’s what all censors say… because they abuse democracy as a mechanism for voting out what they personally don’t like.这就是所有检查员说… …因为他们滥用民主作为一种机制，投票有什么他们个人不喜欢。

    Interaction is the important aspect.互动是重要的一环。

    Is it?是什么呢？ Or is it the fact that politics has essentially taken arms against Rockstar because of “Hot Coffee”? ，抑或是事实，即政治，基本上是采取反对的Rockstar武器，因为“热咖啡”呢？

    Sorry, “miming out” rather than “acting out”.很抱歉， “ miming出来” ，而非“代理” 。 Again, hair-splitting.再次，头发分裂。

    This difference isn’ta mere hair.这种差异不是仅仅是头发。 There’sa big difference between actually bludgeoning someone with a sledgehammer, looking into their eyes as they gasp for their last breath of air, and feeling the rush of adrenaline that sweeps over you as you realize what consequences you face for your criminal actions, and waving a remote control in the air, staring at a television screen displaying game-y animations, while slugging down a beer as your friends in the kitchen cook up a storm.有很大差异，其实bludgeoning有人与大锤，寻找到他们的眼睛，因为他们赞叹，为他们最后呼吸的空气，感觉繁忙肾上腺素认为，彩票超过你正如你实现什么样的后果你面对您的犯罪行为，并挥舞着一个遥控器在空中，凝视在电视屏幕上显示的游戏率动画，而打了一个啤酒作为您的朋友在厨房煮了一场风波。 Are we to censor martial arts demonstrations by solo artists simply because they pretend to damage and kill opponents?我们检查员武术示范独奏艺术家，只是因为他们假装破坏和杀人的对手呢？ How about lock up children for pretending to be cowboys of the Wild West, shooting American Indians?如何锁定儿童假装被牛仔的野生西，射击美洲印第安人？ How much freedom are you willing to waste on an illusion of security derived from a paranoid fear of fantasy?多少自由，你是否愿意浪费在一个幻想的安全来自偏执恐惧的幻想？

    I’m the sort to merrily ride down fleeing Celts and Scythians with Roman cavalry, myself.我的排序，以merrily坐下来逃走，凯尔特人和scythians与罗马骑兵，我自己。

    Well, you win no points there given my Celtic heritage…那么，你赢了，没有点，有鉴于我的凯尔特遗产…

    Have a look at the justifications the ratings folks are releasing with their verdicts.有一个看的理据收视率的乡亲是释放他们的判决。

    They’re all nonsense, based on personal preference.他们都是胡说八道，基于个人偏好。 They say that the industry is capable of policing itself, but that’s not the original intention of any rating system.他们说，业界是有能力的警力本身，而是这不是原意，任何评级制度。 Ensuring that people are blind and ignorant to media other people don’t want you to experience is not the point of the ESRB.保障人民群众是盲目和愚昧落后的传媒其他人不想让你的经验，是不是点的esrb 。 It never was.它从未被。 The point was to rate games fairly, to provide consumers with the data they need to make informed decisions.有人指出，要率游戏公平，向消费者提供的数据，他们需要作出明智的决定。 I can’t respect any bastard who prevents me from the opportunity to make my own informed decision about the media I want to consume.我可以不尊重任何王八谁阻止我从的机会，也使我自己的决定通知有关媒体，我想消费。 While the ESRB isn’t nearly as bad as those BBFC book burners, I would prefer the MPAA take command of rating interactive media since the ESRB is clearly unable to properly perform its function.而esrb是不是几乎一样坏那些bbfc预订燃烧，我宁愿MPAA的指挥评级互动媒体自esrb ，显然是无法正确履行其职能。

  15. Ola Fosheim Grøstad said on June 28th, 2007 at 2:38 am : 法定语文事务署fosheim grøstad说， 2007年6月28日在上午02时38分 ：

    Raph: No, I feel impoverished by the fact that the debate in the articles cannot happen more widely. raph ：没有，我觉得贫困的事实，即辩论中的文章不能发生更广泛。

    Then they can distribute a 3 hour video from the gameplay with think-aloud commentary.然后他们可以散发一份3小时的视频从游戏与智囊团，高喊评论。 Based on the MTV discussion it doesn’t sound worthy of analysis, no hints of psychological depth and reflection.的基础上， MTV的讨论，这并不健全，值得分析，并没有暗示心理的深度和反思。

    This smells like a marketing campaign for me, the developer is keen on keeping their badass reputation, and stir up interest for a game that probably isn’t very good compared to what exists already in the asylum genre…这气味像一个营销活动对我来说，开发商热衷于保持其badass的声誉，和挑起的兴趣的游戏，可能是不太好，比较有什么存在已在庇护流派…

    I totally agree with Jim here.我完全同意与Jim在这里。 I knew from my own youth that we had access to ALL games cracked, some even before they reached distribution.我知道从我自己的青年，我们已获得所有的游戏破获，有些甚至之前，他们达成的分布。 Your kids are going to play this over at their friends house, your kid’s friends big brother will have this wihout his parent’s consent.您的孩子去扮演这个超过在其朋友家，你的孩子的朋友，大哥哥，这将有wihout其父母的同意。

  16. Talaen said on June 28th, 2007 at 6:44 am : talaen说， 2007年6月28日在上午06时44分 ：

    When I was 10 years old, my brother and I used to go out into the woods near our house with all the other kids on the neighborhood and play “war” with toy waterguns, many of which looked quite realistic.当我10岁，我的兄弟和我用走出去到附近的老虎伍兹我们家与所有其他孩子们对居委会和发挥的“战争”与玩具waterguns ，其中很多是相当现实的期待。 You can still buy those things today (although they’re bright orange to keep cops from shooting kids now) and many children still do that type of thing.您仍可以购买这些东西，今天（虽然他们很明亮的橙色，以保持警察从拍摄的孩子现在）和许多孩子仍然做这种类型的事。

    To play devil’s advocate for a moment, how is that really all that different from a 10-year old kid playing a violent video game where his character on the screen shoots “bad guys” or other characters?扮演魔鬼的代言人的时刻，如何是真正的所有不同的从一个10岁的孩子玩暴力视频游戏，他的性格在屏幕上芽“坏人”或其他字符？ How is it really all that different if he happens to be using the wiimote as the gun?如何，是否真的所有不同的，如果他刚巧是使用wiimote作为枪？

    Whether or not Manhunt 2 is over the top, I think the more important question is should we embrace the idea of censoring content even when we have things like a ratings system and parental controls, or should we rely on the parents to use the ratings system and parental controls and try to make those tools robust enough and easy enough to use that they become more effective?是否或不追捕二是超过顶端，我认为更重要的问题是我们应该树立的理念审查的内容，甚至当我们的东西，就像一个评级制度和家长的控制，或我们是否应该依赖于家长使用的评级系统和家长控制和设法使这些工具不够强劲且易于使用不够，他们变得更加有效呢？

    From my point of view, it’s the latter.从我的角度来看，它的后者。 Otherwise we might as well start getting rid of any toy or game that can be used to emulate violence in any form, because what we’re saying is that society has to compensate for parents who won’t control what they give their children access to, because we think (but we don’t really know) that emulating violence might be bad for the children.否则，我们倒不如开始摆脱任何玩具或游戏，可以用来学习任何形式的暴力，因为我们现在说的是，社会，以补偿谁的父母会无法控制他们，让他们的子女进入，因为我们认为（但我们真的不知道）说，学习的暴力行为可能是坏的为儿童。

  17. JuJutsu said on June 28th, 2007 at 8:14 am : jujutsu说， 2007年6月28日在上午8时14分 ：

    @Morgan @摩根
    Why the rant about the ratings board?为什么rant约评级委员会？ They issued an adult only rating…info for informed choice just like you want.?他们发出的一成人，只有评级…信息知情选择，就像你想。吗？ It’s the hardware companies and the retailers that should be getting the vitriol.它的硬件公司和零售商应得到硫酸。

  18. moo said on June 28th, 2007 at 9:28 am : 卢武铉说， 2007年6月28日在上午09时28分 ：

    Well, Nintendo of America apparently says that refusing to release Manhunt 2 on the Wii is “not an image issue”:那么，任天堂美国公司显然是说，拒绝释放追捕2对wii是“不是一个图像问题” ：
    http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=78601 http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=78601

    Personally I don’t believe him.我个人不相信他。 Its perfectly true that “Wii welcomes games rated E, T and M” but even if Manhunt 2 somehow got re-rated Mature, I don’t believe Nintendo would let it be released.其绝对真实“ wii欢迎游戏额定英，法吨和米” ，但即使追捕二或多或少得到重新评价成熟，我不相信，任天堂会让它获得释放。

  19. moo said on June 28th, 2007 at 9:37 am : 卢武铉说， 2007年6月28日在上午09时37分 ：

    @Morgan.. @摩根.. I’m with JuJutsu on this one.我与jujutsu就这一个。

    Ensuring that people are blind and ignorant to media other people don’t want you to experience is not the point of the ESRB.保障人民群众是盲目和愚昧落后的传媒其他人不想让你的经验，是不是点的esrb 。 It never was.它从未被。 The point was to rate games fairly, to provide consumers with the data they need to make informed decisions.有人指出，要率游戏公平，向消费者提供的数据，他们需要作出明智的决定。 I can’t respect any bastard who prevents me from the opportunity to make my own informed decision about the media I want to consume.我可以不尊重任何王八谁阻止我从的机会，也使我自己的决定通知有关媒体，我想消费。

    I actually had a lengthy rant typed up about this yesterday, but Raph’s site overflowed its CPU quota before I could post it.其实我有一个冗长的rant输入约昨天，但raph的网站溢出其CPU的配额之前，我可以邮寄。 =) = ）

    In a nutshell: there is no reason for the AO rating to exist, *except* to give the censors a way to discriminate between “not-for-kids-but-socially-acceptable” content (which gets rated M = 17 ) and “socially-unacceptable” content (which gets AO = 18 ).在简单地说就是：我们是没有理由为敖评级存在， *除*给检查员的方式，以歧视之间的“不为孩子，但是-社会-接受”的内容（即获得额定米= 17 ）和“社会-不可接受”的内容（即获得敖= 18 ） 。 One year’s difference does not matter much.一年的差异也不要紧。 What matters is the Walmarts of the world who refuse to stock AO games, Nintendo/Sony/Microsoft refusing to publish them, etc. In effect, what has happened is that (to please the “think of the children” crowd, I guess) these other corporations have *granted* to the ESRB the power to cripple or kill the distribution of any adult-oriented content by branding it AO instead of M. And I think that sucks.什么事情是walmarts的世界谁拒绝股票敖游戏，任天堂/索尼/微软拒绝公布他们等在的效果，发生了什么事，就是（请“认为儿童”的人群，我猜想）这些其他公司有*授予*向esrb的权力，削弱或杀死的分布任何成人为导向的内容品牌，它敖而不是文字，我认为这sucks为。

    I’d rather see a rating system with 16 and 21 .我宁愿看到一个评级系统，与16 21 。 Then at least there would be an excuse for having two different ratings, and the higher rating would still of course be used for “anti-social” content like Manhunt 2.那么至少会有一个借口，有两个不同的评级，以及较高的评价仍然会当然用于“反社会”的内容，像是追捕2 。

  20. Ola Fosheim Grøstad said on June 28th, 2007 at 10:18 am : 法定语文事务署fosheim grøstad说， 2007年6月28日在上午10时18分 ：

    Talaen: To play devil’s advocate for a moment, how is that really all that different from a 10-year old kid playing a violent video game where his character on the screen shoots “bad guys” or other characters? talaen ：扮演魔鬼的代言人的时刻，如何是真正的所有不同的从一个10岁的孩子玩暴力视频游戏，他的性格在屏幕上芽“坏人”或其他字符？

    Such play can desensitize etc, but is less likely to lead to trauma and reenactment through play (because they are already reenacting… right?).这样的发挥，可以desensitize等，但不太可能导致的创伤和重演，通过发挥（因为他们是已经reenacting …对不对？ ） 。 That is not the case for strong visuals and interactive media.事实并非如此强有力的视觉效果和互动媒体。 It’s not only what they do when they play the game, it is the effect afterwards.它不只是做些什么，当他们玩游戏，它是事后的效果。

    Some kids and young teens unfortunately hang and suffocate themselves and other kids in reenactment acts.一些孩子和青少年，可惜坑及窒息，自己和其他的孩子在重演行为。 Such acts can, and are often, triggered by media-induced trauma, or inspired by media).这种行为可以，而且往往是，所引发的媒体诱导的创伤，或灵感，传媒等） 。 Is Manhunt2 worth a single wounded kid or teenager?是manhunt2值得一单受伤的孩子或少年？

    what we’re saying is that society has to compensate for parents who won’t control what they give their children access to, because we think (but we don’t really know) that emulating violence might be bad for the children. 我们现在要说的是，社会，以补偿谁的父母会无法控制他们，让他们的子女进入，因为我们认为（但我们真的不知道）说，学习的暴力行为可能是坏的为儿童。

    Ehm, a dead kid isn’t proof good enough? ehm ，死亡的孩子是没有证据不够好？ Any man claiming that parents should control what kids have access to is either suffering from a severe case of amnesia or being hypocritical.任何人声称，家长应控制孩子访问，是不是患有严重的案件失忆或正在虚伪的。

    Developers who create content which PRIMARILY young and juvenile players crave for have to be held to adult standards of responsibility no matter what rating their product gets.开发商谁创造的内容，主要是青年和少年球员渴望已为将要举行的成人的责任标准无论什么评价他们的产品获得。 Kick them in their groins, that hurts less than the pain they transfer to some of these kids.踢他们在他们的丁坝，伤害不到他们的痛苦，转移到一些这些孩子。 They know what they are doing.他们知道自己在做什么。

  21. Morgan Ramsay said on June 28th, 2007 at 10:53 am : 摩根拉姆齐说， 2007年6月28日在上午10时53分 ：

    Talaen wrote: talaen写道：

    How is it really all that different if he happens to be using the wiimote as the gun?如何，是否真的所有不同的，如果他刚巧是使用wiimote作为枪？

    Right.右边。 And how is it really all that different from using controllers shaped like handguns and rifles in arcade shooters?以及如何，是否真的所有不同的使用控制器，形状像手枪和步枪在房间射手呢？

    JuJutsu wrote: jujutsu写道：

    Why the rant about the ratings board?为什么rant约评级委员会？ They issued an adult only rating…info for informed choice just like you want.?他们发出的一成人，只有评级…信息知情选择，就像你想。吗？ It’s the hardware companies and the retailers that should be getting the vitriol.它的硬件公司和零售商应得到硫酸。

    Because as moo wrote…因为作为总统写…

    moo wrote:总统写道：

    … these other corporations have *granted* to the ESRB the power to cripple or kill the distribution of any adult-oriented content by branding it AO instead of M. And I think that sucks. …这些其他公司有*授予*向esrb的权力，削弱或杀死的分布任何成人为导向的内容品牌，它敖而不是文字，我认为这sucks为。

    ESRB knows full well that the AO “rating” is the kiss of death. esrb清楚地知道该敖“评级”是亲吻死亡。 ESRB also knows that the organization does have the influence to work with the big three publishers to enable public access to AO works. esrb也知道，该组织是否已影响到工作与三大出版商，使市民获取政务工程。 In effect, ESRB is responsible for ensuring that the organization is not prevented from doing its job.在效果， esrb是负责确保该组织并没有妨碍做它的工作。 As of now, it doesn’t matter if a work receives an AO rating because that rating does not inform consumers; it simply bars the work from distribution so that no consumer has the choice to be informed.截至目前，不要紧，如果一个工作收到敖评级，因为评级不告知消费者;简单酒吧的工作，从分布，使消费者有选择的被告知。

  22. Talaen said on June 28th, 2007 at 11:48 am : talaen说， 2007年6月28日在上午11时48分 ：

    ESRB knows full well that the AO “rating” is the kiss of death. esrb清楚地知道该敖“评级”是亲吻死亡。 ESRB also knows that the organization does have the influence to work with the big three publishers to enable public access to AO works. esrb也知道，该组织是否已影响到工作与三大出版商，使市民获取政务工程。 In effect, ESRB is responsible for ensuring that the organization is not prevented from doing its job.在效果， esrb是负责确保该组织并没有妨碍做它的工作。 As of now, it doesn’t matter if a work receives an AO rating because that rating does not inform consumers; it simply bars the work from distribution so that no consumer has the choice to be informed.截至目前，不要紧，如果一个工作收到敖评级，因为评级不告知消费者;简单酒吧的工作，从分布，使消费者有选择的被告知。

    If you go to your local Blockbuster, you probably won’t find a shelf of XXX porn (at least, I don’t think you will).如果你到您当地的重磅炸弹，你可能不会找到一个大陆架根据× × ×色情（至少，我不认为你会） 。 But I bet if you look you’ll find a few shops in your town selling them, and they’re only a few clicks away on the web.但我敢打赌，如果你看一下你会发现几个商店在您的城市出售，同时，他们还在，只需点击几次就能在网站上。

    This is why I said way up above that I understand and respect a retailer’s decision to carry or not carry a title based on its rating.这就是为什么我说了上述的方式，我理解和尊重零售商的决定进行或不进行所有权的基础上，其评级。 Although I agree with you that it is silly that you can go buy movies like Saw or Hostel at Best Buy and yet not pick up a title like Manhunt.虽然我同意你的说法，这是愚蠢的，您可以去购买电影一样，看到或宿舍在Best Buy的和尚未拿起一个标题一样，追捕。

    The reason that this is acceptable to me as a consumer is that there is still room for specialty retailers to carry the title.理由是这是可以接受的，我作为一个消费者是有仍有待专业零售商进行的标题。 Of course, in the video game industry, there aren’t very many specialty retailers left, and that’s an issue, but there is still room.当然，在视频游戏产业，有很多不是很专业零售商左，这是一个问题，但仍有空间。 If Take Two were allowed to publish the game, they could still find ways to distribute it - via a web storefront, if nothing else.如果采取两个被允许发布的游戏，他们仍然可以设法分发-通过网络店面，如果没有其他。

    While I agree that the AO and M ratings are way too close to really be a meaningful distinction, I don’t think AO really is the kiss of death for a game like this as long as it can still be published.虽然我同意，政务主任和米收视率的方式太接近真正有意义的区别，我不认为敖真的是亲吻死亡的游戏，这样的，只要它仍然可以发表。 It might be the kiss of death if you’re counting on big box retail as your primary distribution channel, but there are alternatives to big box retail.它可能是死亡之吻如果您计数的大方块零售做为主要的分销渠道，但也有替代品的大方块零售。

  23. Morgan Ramsay said on June 28th, 2007 at 1:46 pm : 摩根拉姆齐说， 2007年6月28日在下午1时46分 ：

    Talaen wrote: talaen写道：

    If Take Two were allowed to publish the game, they could still find ways to distribute it - via a web storefront, if nothing else.如果采取两个被允许发布的游戏，他们仍然可以设法分发-通过网络店面，如果没有其他。

    Right.右边。 At that point, I wouldn’t care about the AO rating; however, the AO rating as it stands now is effectively a mechanism for blacklisting games.在这一点上，我不会关心敖评级;不过，敖评级，因为它现在的立场是有效的机制，列入黑名单的游戏。 ESRB has become a censor and therefore has failed in its responsibility to inform consumers. esrb已成为一个检查员，并因此未能在其责任告知消费者。

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