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> <channel><title>Comments on: Ways to make your social space more gamey</title> <atom:link href="http://www.raphkoster.com/2009/02/04/ways-to-make-your-social-space-more-gamey/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" /><link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2009/02/04/ways-to-make-your-social-space-more-gamey/</link> <description>Raph Koster&#039;s personal website: MMOs, gaming, writing, art, music, books</description> <lastBuildDate>Sun, 12 Feb 2012 06:02:55 +0000</lastBuildDate> <sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod> <sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency> <generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1</generator> <item><title>By: links for 2009-02-19 &#171; Social Sim</title><link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2009/02/04/ways-to-make-your-social-space-more-gamey/comment-page-1/#comment-144858</link> <dc:creator>links for 2009-02-19 &#171; Social Sim</dc:creator> <pubDate>Thu, 19 Feb 2009 17:03:15 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/?p=2489#comment-144858</guid> <description>[...] Ways to make your social space more gamey Using games to make online communities grow (tags: social theory community games game socialmedia virtualworlds raphkoster) [...]</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<div
style="padding:15px; border-left:1px solid #dedede; border-bottom:3px solid #CCEBF7; background-color:#fcfeff"><p>[...] Ways to make your social space more gamey Using games to make online communities grow (tags: social theory community games game socialmedia virtualworlds raphkoster) [...]</p></div> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Tesh</title><link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2009/02/04/ways-to-make-your-social-space-more-gamey/comment-page-1/#comment-144800</link> <dc:creator>Tesh</dc:creator> <pubDate>Mon, 16 Feb 2009 21:08:49 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/?p=2489#comment-144800</guid> <description>As far as I&#039;m concerned, the socialization factor is the friction bit.  If I were to go to a ski resort, I&#039;m going there to ski.  All of the stuff that gets in the way of that goal is an annoyance.  Similarly, when I go to an MMO world that I&#039;m interested in, I&#039;m going there to play the game and explore the world.  The social elements are an annoyance, especially when the game design tries to force me to socialize as a gate to content.
I might choose to socialize in either the resort or the MMO, and I appreciate the option to do so, but I will always resent the obstacles between me and the slopes or the game when the only reason for them being there is to foster &quot;socialization&quot;.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As far as I&#8217;m concerned, the socialization factor is the friction bit.  If I were to go to a ski resort, I&#8217;m going there to ski.  All of the stuff that gets in the way of that goal is an annoyance.  Similarly, when I go to an MMO world that I&#8217;m interested in, I&#8217;m going there to play the game and explore the world.  The social elements are an annoyance, especially when the game design tries to force me to socialize as a gate to content.</p><p>I might choose to socialize in either the resort or the MMO, and I appreciate the option to do so, but I will always resent the obstacles between me and the slopes or the game when the only reason for them being there is to foster &#8220;socialization&#8221;.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Aku-Aku</title><link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2009/02/04/ways-to-make-your-social-space-more-gamey/comment-page-1/#comment-144566</link> <dc:creator>Aku-Aku</dc:creator> <pubDate>Fri, 06 Feb 2009 16:57:33 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/?p=2489#comment-144566</guid> <description>&lt;blockquote&gt;In this post I am talking about worlds where the game is the spice for the social piece, not the other way around.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
I mean, is&#039;nt it be interesting if game produce some topics for social communication. For example as it can do the chess.
Where people have interest not only by playing and after that or during that -- chatting.
But also produce some type of shareable experience.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>In this post I am talking about worlds where the game is the spice for the social piece, not the other way around.</p></blockquote><p>I mean, is&#8217;nt it be interesting if game produce some topics for social communication. For example as it can do the chess.<br
/> Where people have interest not only by playing and after that or during that &#8212; chatting.<br
/> But also produce some type of shareable experience.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Yukon Sam</title><link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2009/02/04/ways-to-make-your-social-space-more-gamey/comment-page-1/#comment-144547</link> <dc:creator>Yukon Sam</dc:creator> <pubDate>Thu, 05 Feb 2009 19:33:24 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/?p=2489#comment-144547</guid> <description>&lt;blockquote&gt;See, that’s why you always have to have your own set list.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Get me started on virtual performance and I will happily sidetrack the discussion for hours on end :)
But as to the subject at hand... I&#039;ve been thinking about interplayer conflict as a socializing mechanism since the days of the old UO mailing list. And I still think it acts against healthy churn.
I&#039;m thinking specifically of the recent story out of Eve Online of a top player in a powerful alliance flipping, disbanding the alliance, and destablizing the established power structure of the game. At first glance it looks like a great churn moment, as people scramble to make new connections and find a place in the new galactic order. It certainly has stimulated a great deal of discussion, much of it of a very colorful nature.
But long term, it undermines the ability of players to trust one another, and it tends to fragment them into small, xenophobic bands. With the consequences of being too trusting made manifest, groups will likely turtle up with trusted friends and it will be much more difficult for anybody new to even get a foot in the door, much less rise to any position of respect within the ranks.
In UO, I called it the &quot;armed camp&quot; mentality; people banded together for survival, but any social structure beyond the immediate band was hard to establish and maintain, and it wasn&#039;t easy to be accepted by any of the existing bands unless you had an &quot;in&quot;, such as a RL friend.
I think there is a level of healthy rivalry and competition. And even in a mostly open PvP environment, I think there are ways to combat the armed camp mentality. But I think that designers need to be mindful that the socialization fostered by conflict can be so static and inflexible that a single traitor can shatter it, and take steps to counter this (such as the previously-discussed recruitment incentives).
Does this apply to purely social worlds? Maybe not as obviously. On the other hand, in all the social worlds I&#039;ve visited, there have been &quot;mafia&quot; groups with no higher purpose than to sow grief, attack social bonds and institutions, foster distrust, and otherwise try to destroy the fabric of the community. They may force other groups to close ranks against them, which could be viewed as increased socialization, but that same closure of ranks tends to exclude people who aren&#039;t already members.
I guess it would be a subpoint of &quot;Work Against the Other&quot;... make sure that &quot;The Other&quot; doesn&#039;t become &quot;everyone but me and you, and I&#039;m not too sure about you&quot;.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>See, that’s why you always have to have your own set list.</p></blockquote><p>Get me started on virtual performance and I will happily sidetrack the discussion for hours on end <img
src='http://www.raphkoster.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /></p><p>But as to the subject at hand&#8230; I&#8217;ve been thinking about interplayer conflict as a socializing mechanism since the days of the old UO mailing list. And I still think it acts against healthy churn.</p><p>I&#8217;m thinking specifically of the recent story out of Eve Online of a top player in a powerful alliance flipping, disbanding the alliance, and destablizing the established power structure of the game. At first glance it looks like a great churn moment, as people scramble to make new connections and find a place in the new galactic order. It certainly has stimulated a great deal of discussion, much of it of a very colorful nature.</p><p>But long term, it undermines the ability of players to trust one another, and it tends to fragment them into small, xenophobic bands. With the consequences of being too trusting made manifest, groups will likely turtle up with trusted friends and it will be much more difficult for anybody new to even get a foot in the door, much less rise to any position of respect within the ranks.</p><p>In UO, I called it the &#8220;armed camp&#8221; mentality; people banded together for survival, but any social structure beyond the immediate band was hard to establish and maintain, and it wasn&#8217;t easy to be accepted by any of the existing bands unless you had an &#8220;in&#8221;, such as a RL friend.</p><p>I think there is a level of healthy rivalry and competition. And even in a mostly open PvP environment, I think there are ways to combat the armed camp mentality. But I think that designers need to be mindful that the socialization fostered by conflict can be so static and inflexible that a single traitor can shatter it, and take steps to counter this (such as the previously-discussed recruitment incentives).</p><p>Does this apply to purely social worlds? Maybe not as obviously. On the other hand, in all the social worlds I&#8217;ve visited, there have been &#8220;mafia&#8221; groups with no higher purpose than to sow grief, attack social bonds and institutions, foster distrust, and otherwise try to destroy the fabric of the community. They may force other groups to close ranks against them, which could be viewed as increased socialization, but that same closure of ranks tends to exclude people who aren&#8217;t already members.</p><p>I guess it would be a subpoint of &#8220;Work Against the Other&#8221;&#8230; make sure that &#8220;The Other&#8221; doesn&#8217;t become &#8220;everyone but me and you, and I&#8217;m not too sure about you&#8221;.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Derek Licciardi</title><link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2009/02/04/ways-to-make-your-social-space-more-gamey/comment-page-1/#comment-144544</link> <dc:creator>Derek Licciardi</dc:creator> <pubDate>Thu, 05 Feb 2009 18:29:37 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/?p=2489#comment-144544</guid> <description>Change the last sentence to &quot;in addition to&quot; instead of &quot;rather than from&quot;.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Change the last sentence to &#8220;in addition to&#8221; instead of &#8220;rather than from&#8221;.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Derek Licciardi</title><link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2009/02/04/ways-to-make-your-social-space-more-gamey/comment-page-1/#comment-144543</link> <dc:creator>Derek Licciardi</dc:creator> <pubDate>Thu, 05 Feb 2009 18:27:23 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/?p=2489#comment-144543</guid> <description>@Yukon Sam:  That applies in the real world as well.  A few weeks ago a bunch of friends of mine went out to celebrate my wife&#039;s birthday.  We went to a dualing piano bar and had a blast.  I couldn&#039;t help but think that if you went to the same bar week in and week out, you would get sick of Piano Man renditions, Elton John songs and the same antics applied every week.  Eventually the experience boils down to the few rare moments that stand out from the identical moments of the past visits.  In that type of setting churn is almost more important than retention in that retaining the same customers will directly lead to playing the same show over and over again.
Maybe we need to start thinking about churn from an individual game-system/location/event standpoint rather than from the global subscription churn we talk about today.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Yukon Sam:  That applies in the real world as well.  A few weeks ago a bunch of friends of mine went out to celebrate my wife&#8217;s birthday.  We went to a dualing piano bar and had a blast.  I couldn&#8217;t help but think that if you went to the same bar week in and week out, you would get sick of Piano Man renditions, Elton John songs and the same antics applied every week.  Eventually the experience boils down to the few rare moments that stand out from the identical moments of the past visits.  In that type of setting churn is almost more important than retention in that retaining the same customers will directly lead to playing the same show over and over again.</p><p>Maybe we need to start thinking about churn from an individual game-system/location/event standpoint rather than from the global subscription churn we talk about today.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Raph</title><link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2009/02/04/ways-to-make-your-social-space-more-gamey/comment-page-1/#comment-144538</link> <dc:creator>Raph</dc:creator> <pubDate>Thu, 05 Feb 2009 17:03:05 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/?p=2489#comment-144538</guid> <description>&lt;blockquote&gt;My wife does an all-request show, but too many nights it’s the same few people putting in the same requests (even though her request list tops 150 songs). Consequently, even enthusiastic fans get fatigued after awhile and start coming to fewer shows.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
See, that&#039;s why you always have to have your own set list. ;)
I mentioned the churn effect in the last post... you&#039;re completely correct.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>My wife does an all-request show, but too many nights it’s the same few people putting in the same requests (even though her request list tops 150 songs). Consequently, even enthusiastic fans get fatigued after awhile and start coming to fewer shows.</p></blockquote><p>See, that&#8217;s why you always have to have your own set list. <img
src='http://www.raphkoster.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /></p><p>I mentioned the churn effect in the last post&#8230; you&#8217;re completely correct.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Raph</title><link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2009/02/04/ways-to-make-your-social-space-more-gamey/comment-page-1/#comment-144537</link> <dc:creator>Raph</dc:creator> <pubDate>Thu, 05 Feb 2009 17:01:46 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/?p=2489#comment-144537</guid> <description>&lt;blockquote&gt;here in your post games works only as lubrificant for social activites.
But what if social activity will be a part of in-game experience, not just a free spice for game.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
I am not sure what you mean. In this post I am talking about worlds where the game is the spice for the social piece, not the other way around.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>here in your post games works only as lubrificant for social activites.<br
/> But what if social activity will be a part of in-game experience, not just a free spice for game.</p></blockquote><p>I am not sure what you mean. In this post I am talking about worlds where the game is the spice for the social piece, not the other way around.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Yukon Sam</title><link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2009/02/04/ways-to-make-your-social-space-more-gamey/comment-page-1/#comment-144534</link> <dc:creator>Yukon Sam</dc:creator> <pubDate>Thu, 05 Feb 2009 15:00:57 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/?p=2489#comment-144534</guid> <description>Here&#039;s another factor; churn. Cliques stagnate and eventually fade away (or break off in big chunks). The easier it is to locate, recruit and integrate fresh blood, the more robust the social group is.
That&#039;s a problem we continually face performing live music in Second Life. My wife does an all-request show, but too many nights it&#039;s the same few people putting in the same requests (even though her request list tops 150 songs). Consequently, even enthusiastic fans get fatigued after awhile and start coming to fewer shows.
The system rewards marketing and promotion over talent in a fashion far too parallel to real life. But all channels to reach out to new listeners are clotted with second-rate merchants trying to game the system.
Even groups that are open and friendly to new users find it a daunting task to connect with them. Just like for the MMOs, improving this situation vastly improves your stickiness and the longevity of groups within the game world.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s another factor; churn. Cliques stagnate and eventually fade away (or break off in big chunks). The easier it is to locate, recruit and integrate fresh blood, the more robust the social group is.</p><p>That&#8217;s a problem we continually face performing live music in Second Life. My wife does an all-request show, but too many nights it&#8217;s the same few people putting in the same requests (even though her request list tops 150 songs). Consequently, even enthusiastic fans get fatigued after awhile and start coming to fewer shows.</p><p>The system rewards marketing and promotion over talent in a fashion far too parallel to real life. But all channels to reach out to new listeners are clotted with second-rate merchants trying to game the system.</p><p>Even groups that are open and friendly to new users find it a daunting task to connect with them. Just like for the MMOs, improving this situation vastly improves your stickiness and the longevity of groups within the game world.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Aku-Aku</title><link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2009/02/04/ways-to-make-your-social-space-more-gamey/comment-page-1/#comment-144531</link> <dc:creator>Aku-Aku</dc:creator> <pubDate>Thu, 05 Feb 2009 08:47:20 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/?p=2489#comment-144531</guid> <description>Yeah, that&#039;s interesting.
But here in your post games works only as lubrificant for social activites.
But what if social activity will be a part of in-game experience, not just a free spice for game.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, that&#8217;s interesting.</p><p>But here in your post games works only as lubrificant for social activites.<br
/> But what if social activity will be a part of in-game experience, not just a free spice for game.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> </channel> </rss>
