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> <channel><title>Comments on: MMOG play as a barrier to getting a job</title> <atom:link href="http://www.raphkoster.com/2008/12/15/mmog-play-as-a-barrier-to-getting-a-job/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" /><link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2008/12/15/mmog-play-as-a-barrier-to-getting-a-job/</link> <description>Raph Koster&#039;s personal website: MMOs, gaming, writing, art, music, books</description> <lastBuildDate>Sun, 12 Feb 2012 06:02:55 +0000</lastBuildDate> <sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod> <sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency> <generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1</generator> <item><title>By: The BRK effect &#171; For the Horde</title><link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2008/12/15/mmog-play-as-a-barrier-to-getting-a-job/comment-page-2/#comment-146785</link> <dc:creator>The BRK effect &#171; For the Horde</dc:creator> <pubDate>Tue, 31 Mar 2009 23:05:27 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/2008/12/15/mmog-play-as-a-barrier-to-getting-a-job/#comment-146785</guid> <description>[...] gaming in general and WoW specifically is unfairly labeled as obsessive &#8212; take, for example, employers who flatly refuse to hire any WoW players &#8212; when I don&#8217;t think WoW is more likely to disrupt your life than any other hobby. If [...]</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<div
style="padding:15px; border-left:1px solid #dedede; border-bottom:3px solid #CCEBF7; background-color:#fcfeff"><p>[...] gaming in general and WoW specifically is unfairly labeled as obsessive &#8212; take, for example, employers who flatly refuse to hire any WoW players &#8212; when I don&#8217;t think WoW is more likely to disrupt your life than any other hobby. If [...]</p></div> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: NB -Don&#8217;t recruit WoW players, erm, bad journalists - Ex-Ante</title><link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2008/12/15/mmog-play-as-a-barrier-to-getting-a-job/comment-page-2/#comment-143705</link> <dc:creator>NB -Don&#8217;t recruit WoW players, erm, bad journalists - Ex-Ante</dc:creator> <pubDate>Fri, 02 Jan 2009 09:46:46 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/2008/12/15/mmog-play-as-a-barrier-to-getting-a-job/#comment-143705</guid> <description>[...] so many editors when it was, in some cases, wholly inaccurate? Well, the source seems to have been this blog post by game designer Raph Koster. Raph just quoted Tale&#8217;s original f13 post, made a quick comment [...]</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<div
style="padding:15px; border-left:1px solid #dedede; border-bottom:3px solid #CCEBF7; background-color:#fcfeff"><p>[...] so many editors when it was, in some cases, wholly inaccurate? Well, the source seems to have been this blog post by game designer Raph Koster. Raph just quoted Tale&#8217;s original f13 post, made a quick comment [...]</p></div> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: len</title><link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2008/12/15/mmog-play-as-a-barrier-to-getting-a-job/comment-page-2/#comment-143572</link> <dc:creator>len</dc:creator> <pubDate>Fri, 26 Dec 2008 17:19:57 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/2008/12/15/mmog-play-as-a-barrier-to-getting-a-job/#comment-143572</guid> <description>&quot;What next? Requiring vows of celibacy from all potential employees...&quot;
Only during the eight hours they are work. :-)</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;What next? Requiring vows of celibacy from all potential employees&#8230;&#8221;</p><p>Only during the eight hours they are work. <img
src='http://www.raphkoster.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /></p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Morgan Ramsay</title><link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2008/12/15/mmog-play-as-a-barrier-to-getting-a-job/comment-page-2/#comment-143568</link> <dc:creator>Morgan Ramsay</dc:creator> <pubDate>Thu, 25 Dec 2008 20:38:04 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/2008/12/15/mmog-play-as-a-barrier-to-getting-a-job/#comment-143568</guid> <description>&lt;strong&gt;Zagzyg:&lt;/strong&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;I have to say it seems to me that the original conversation seems to have been taken out of context.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Nope.
&lt;blockquote&gt;Not hiring someone because they play WoW is so daft as to be scary. I can’t think of any reason that would make sense.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Exactly.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Zagzyg:</strong></p><blockquote><p>I have to say it seems to me that the original conversation seems to have been taken out of context.</p></blockquote><p>Nope.</p><blockquote><p>Not hiring someone because they play WoW is so daft as to be scary. I can’t think of any reason that would make sense.</p></blockquote><p>Exactly.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Zagzyg</title><link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2008/12/15/mmog-play-as-a-barrier-to-getting-a-job/comment-page-2/#comment-143563</link> <dc:creator>Zagzyg</dc:creator> <pubDate>Wed, 24 Dec 2008 13:29:58 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/2008/12/15/mmog-play-as-a-barrier-to-getting-a-job/#comment-143563</guid> <description>I have to say it seems to me that the original conversation seems to have been taken out of context.
It seems more likely that the employer is asking the agent to not send them potential employees who claim &quot;Organised WoW guild raids&quot; as management experience.
Not hiring someone because they play WoW is so daft as to be scary.  I can&#039;t think of any reason that would make sense.  Making up examples such as WoW players &quot;having a 65% chance to get 2 hours sleep per night&quot; implies vastly more data collection than has ever been done.  It would actually be slightly more meaningful to simple ask potential employees how many hours they sleep per night, regardless of what keeps them up.
What next? Requiring vows of celibacy from all potential employees, as they&#039;ll have more energy, be less distracted at work, and less likely to go through disruptive relationship breakups?</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have to say it seems to me that the original conversation seems to have been taken out of context.<br
/> It seems more likely that the employer is asking the agent to not send them potential employees who claim &#8220;Organised WoW guild raids&#8221; as management experience.<br
/> Not hiring someone because they play WoW is so daft as to be scary.  I can&#8217;t think of any reason that would make sense.  Making up examples such as WoW players &#8220;having a 65% chance to get 2 hours sleep per night&#8221; implies vastly more data collection than has ever been done.  It would actually be slightly more meaningful to simple ask potential employees how many hours they sleep per night, regardless of what keeps them up.</p><p>What next? Requiring vows of celibacy from all potential employees, as they&#8217;ll have more energy, be less distracted at work, and less likely to go through disruptive relationship breakups?</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Yukon Sam</title><link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2008/12/15/mmog-play-as-a-barrier-to-getting-a-job/comment-page-2/#comment-143552</link> <dc:creator>Yukon Sam</dc:creator> <pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 16:24:25 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/2008/12/15/mmog-play-as-a-barrier-to-getting-a-job/#comment-143552</guid> <description>&lt;blockquote&gt;They’re a particularly addictive sub-set of games.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
In 2007, the American Psychological Association considered adding &quot;videogame addiction&quot; to the next edition of the diagnostic manual as a psychological disorder. The proposal was rejected. There is not enough credible scientific evidence that games present any more of an addictive hook than any other activity upon which a person may become fixated, be it model railroading, stamp collecting, golf or church choir.
&lt;blockquote&gt;Second, if doing something in your personal life - like cocaine, alcohol, whatever - is destructive to your work life&lt;/blockquote&gt;
That&#039;s not the question at hand, is it? Should you disqualify all applicants who drink alcohol out of fear that one of them may be an alcoholic? It&#039;s not alcohol that&#039;s the problem, it&#039;s addiction. It&#039;s not games that are a problem, it&#039;s the compulsive behavior. We&#039;re talking about a small subset of players with a prexisting mental illness (obsessive/compulsive), not an activity that causes maladaptive behavior.
&lt;blockquote&gt;These games are destructive. Why? Simple. Grind.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Golf is destructive. Why? Simple. Par.
There are valid game design reasons to retool &quot;grind&quot; mechanics... but reducing the feel of &quot;grind&quot; tends to make the game world more compelling and immersive (and perhaps more attractive to a compulsive personality).
It&#039;s the widespread myths, misconceptions and outright lies about gaming that fuel the discrimination outlined in the original post. It&#039;s &quot;Dark Dungeons&quot; for the 21st century, only without Jack Chick&#039;s artistic subtlety.*
*Note for the irony impaired: Yukon Sam does not find Jack Chick artistic or subtle.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>They’re a particularly addictive sub-set of games.</p></blockquote><p>In 2007, the American Psychological Association considered adding &#8220;videogame addiction&#8221; to the next edition of the diagnostic manual as a psychological disorder. The proposal was rejected. There is not enough credible scientific evidence that games present any more of an addictive hook than any other activity upon which a person may become fixated, be it model railroading, stamp collecting, golf or church choir.</p><blockquote><p>Second, if doing something in your personal life &#8211; like cocaine, alcohol, whatever &#8211; is destructive to your work life</p></blockquote><p>That&#8217;s not the question at hand, is it? Should you disqualify all applicants who drink alcohol out of fear that one of them may be an alcoholic? It&#8217;s not alcohol that&#8217;s the problem, it&#8217;s addiction. It&#8217;s not games that are a problem, it&#8217;s the compulsive behavior. We&#8217;re talking about a small subset of players with a prexisting mental illness (obsessive/compulsive), not an activity that causes maladaptive behavior.</p><blockquote><p>These games are destructive. Why? Simple. Grind.</p></blockquote><p>Golf is destructive. Why? Simple. Par.</p><p>There are valid game design reasons to retool &#8220;grind&#8221; mechanics&#8230; but reducing the feel of &#8220;grind&#8221; tends to make the game world more compelling and immersive (and perhaps more attractive to a compulsive personality).</p><p>It&#8217;s the widespread myths, misconceptions and outright lies about gaming that fuel the discrimination outlined in the original post. It&#8217;s &#8220;Dark Dungeons&#8221; for the 21st century, only without Jack Chick&#8217;s artistic subtlety.*</p><p>*Note for the irony impaired: Yukon Sam does not find Jack Chick artistic or subtle.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Carter</title><link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2008/12/15/mmog-play-as-a-barrier-to-getting-a-job/comment-page-2/#comment-143548</link> <dc:creator>Carter</dc:creator> <pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 08:41:22 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/2008/12/15/mmog-play-as-a-barrier-to-getting-a-job/#comment-143548</guid> <description>Cognitive dissonance here.
First, WoW and similar MMOs aren&#039;t mere games. So let&#039;s not go down that alley. They&#039;re a particularly addictive sub-set of games.
Second, if doing something in your personal life - like cocaine, alcohol, whatever - is destructive to your work life, then your employer has every right to discriminate.
Lastly, let&#039;s get off the moral high horse here (as if you even are on any high horse). The reactions on these boards are like flat out, classic alcoholic&#039;s denial. These games are destructive. Why? Simple. Grind.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cognitive dissonance here.</p><p>First, WoW and similar MMOs aren&#8217;t mere games. So let&#8217;s not go down that alley. They&#8217;re a particularly addictive sub-set of games.</p><p>Second, if doing something in your personal life &#8211; like cocaine, alcohol, whatever &#8211; is destructive to your work life, then your employer has every right to discriminate.</p><p>Lastly, let&#8217;s get off the moral high horse here (as if you even are on any high horse). The reactions on these boards are like flat out, classic alcoholic&#8217;s denial. These games are destructive. Why? Simple. Grind.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Morgan Ramsay</title><link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2008/12/15/mmog-play-as-a-barrier-to-getting-a-job/comment-page-2/#comment-143541</link> <dc:creator>Morgan Ramsay</dc:creator> <pubDate>Mon, 22 Dec 2008 22:49:11 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/2008/12/15/mmog-play-as-a-barrier-to-getting-a-job/#comment-143541</guid> <description>&lt;strong&gt;Makaze:&lt;/strong&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;Which has what exactly to do with this discussion?&lt;/blockquote&gt;
You dismissed the importance of litigation to legislation in this country. I just thought I&#039;d remind you that litigation is vital to our system of government.
&lt;blockquote&gt;using the judicial branch to essentially make new legislation by overriding existing legislation on the subjective grounds that a particular job/activity do not mix, not on purely legal grounds.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
The role of the judiciary is to interpret laws, which means setting precedent through case law, which in turn attorneys use to advise their clients on what cases they can win or lose in court, which thus serves to deter wrongful conduct. Clients can still go to court with unfavorable cases, and they can win. That&#039;s the system.
&lt;blockquote&gt;That is time consuming, expensive, inefficient, and potentially just as discriminatory on a large scale.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Congratulations! You&#039;ve discovered what our government was designed to be, sparing the last bit.
&lt;blockquote&gt;but not getting sued is at least half of HRs job&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Right, and that&#039;s where more education and training comes into play.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Makaze:</strong></p><blockquote><p>Which has what exactly to do with this discussion?</p></blockquote><p>You dismissed the importance of litigation to legislation in this country. I just thought I&#8217;d remind you that litigation is vital to our system of government.</p><blockquote><p>using the judicial branch to essentially make new legislation by overriding existing legislation on the subjective grounds that a particular job/activity do not mix, not on purely legal grounds.</p></blockquote><p>The role of the judiciary is to interpret laws, which means setting precedent through case law, which in turn attorneys use to advise their clients on what cases they can win or lose in court, which thus serves to deter wrongful conduct. Clients can still go to court with unfavorable cases, and they can win. That&#8217;s the system.</p><blockquote><p>That is time consuming, expensive, inefficient, and potentially just as discriminatory on a large scale.</p></blockquote><p>Congratulations! You&#8217;ve discovered what our government was designed to be, sparing the last bit.</p><blockquote><p>but not getting sued is at least half of HRs job</p></blockquote><p>Right, and that&#8217;s where more education and training comes into play.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Peter S.</title><link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2008/12/15/mmog-play-as-a-barrier-to-getting-a-job/comment-page-2/#comment-143538</link> <dc:creator>Peter S.</dc:creator> <pubDate>Mon, 22 Dec 2008 18:25:10 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/2008/12/15/mmog-play-as-a-barrier-to-getting-a-job/#comment-143538</guid> <description>It IS continually interesting.  Gah.  :P</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It IS continually interesting.  Gah. <img
src='http://www.raphkoster.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_razz.gif' alt=':P' class='wp-smiley' /></p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Peter S.</title><link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2008/12/15/mmog-play-as-a-barrier-to-getting-a-job/comment-page-2/#comment-143537</link> <dc:creator>Peter S.</dc:creator> <pubDate>Mon, 22 Dec 2008 18:24:49 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/2008/12/15/mmog-play-as-a-barrier-to-getting-a-job/#comment-143537</guid> <description>As another quick response, just to see if the discussion goes anywhere else, there&#039;s a parallel here between an employer wanting to make a safe bet and an insurer wanting to make a safe bet.  Similar motivations with similar perils and pitfalls.
It continually interesting how much risk-taking is praised in word and fled in deed by modern businesses.
Also, asking honestly as someone who does not know, is unemployment insurance really that bad?  I understand the other costs of bringing a new hire up to speed that are lost of they&#039;re released, but this is the one element that (in my limited experience) employers go to the greatest lengths to avoid.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As another quick response, just to see if the discussion goes anywhere else, there&#8217;s a parallel here between an employer wanting to make a safe bet and an insurer wanting to make a safe bet.  Similar motivations with similar perils and pitfalls.</p><p>It continually interesting how much risk-taking is praised in word and fled in deed by modern businesses.</p><p>Also, asking honestly as someone who does not know, is unemployment insurance really that bad?  I understand the other costs of bringing a new hire up to speed that are lost of they&#8217;re released, but this is the one element that (in my limited experience) employers go to the greatest lengths to avoid.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> </channel> </rss>
