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> <channel><title>Comments on: Netherlands say virtual goods are property</title> <atom:link href="http://www.raphkoster.com/2008/10/23/netherlands-say-virtual-goods-are/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" /><link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2008/10/23/netherlands-say-virtual-goods-are/</link> <description>Raph Koster&#039;s personal website: MMOs, gaming, writing, art, music, books</description> <lastBuildDate>Sun, 12 Feb 2012 06:02:55 +0000</lastBuildDate> <sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod> <sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency> <generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1</generator> <item><title>By: Raph&apos;s Website &#187; Text of the ruling in the Dutch VW property case</title><link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2008/10/23/netherlands-say-virtual-goods-are/comment-page-1/#comment-142369</link> <dc:creator>Raph&apos;s Website &#187; Text of the ruling in the Dutch VW property case</dc:creator> <pubDate>Mon, 27 Oct 2008 15:21:08 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/2008/10/23/netherlands-say-virtual-goods-are/#comment-142369</guid> <description>[...] blog has kindly translated the Court Ruling in the RuneScape Case that was the subject of a post a couple of days ago. As the virtual amulet and virtual mask as defined in the case at hand meet the aforementioned [...]</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<div
style="padding:15px; border-left:1px solid #dedede; border-bottom:3px solid #CCEBF7; background-color:#fcfeff"><p>[...] blog has kindly translated the Court Ruling in the RuneScape Case that was the subject of a post a couple of days ago. As the virtual amulet and virtual mask as defined in the case at hand meet the aforementioned [...]</p></div> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Andrew Crystall</title><link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2008/10/23/netherlands-say-virtual-goods-are/comment-page-1/#comment-142368</link> <dc:creator>Andrew Crystall</dc:creator> <pubDate>Mon, 27 Oct 2008 13:27:46 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/2008/10/23/netherlands-say-virtual-goods-are/#comment-142368</guid> <description>KevinMc - No, not really. Even if players have rights to the items, the EULA clause about them being able to shut down the servers still stands. Also, while ownership is implied by the ruling, value is not.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>KevinMc &#8211; No, not really. Even if players have rights to the items, the EULA clause about them being able to shut down the servers still stands. Also, while ownership is implied by the ruling, value is not.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: VeeJay Burns</title><link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2008/10/23/netherlands-say-virtual-goods-are/comment-page-1/#comment-142367</link> <dc:creator>VeeJay Burns</dc:creator> <pubDate>Sun, 26 Oct 2008 21:53:54 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/2008/10/23/netherlands-say-virtual-goods-are/#comment-142367</guid> <description>Hi Raph, thanks for linking up to the original post on MindBlizzard. Virtually Blind dug up the court report and parsed it with Google Translate. The result was not a clear document on the reasoning of the court, so I decided to give it a shot myself at translating the court documents. Part of which I&#039;ve put up at the MindBlizzard site. This might give you an insight into the courts reasoning on the status of virtual goods, which most of the above comments are about.
You&#039;ll find the translation at: &lt;a href=&quot;http://blog.mindblizzard.com/2008/10/court-ruling-in-runescape-case_26.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;MindBlizzard - Court Ruling in the RuneScape Case &lt;/a&gt;</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Raph, thanks for linking up to the original post on MindBlizzard. Virtually Blind dug up the court report and parsed it with Google Translate. The result was not a clear document on the reasoning of the court, so I decided to give it a shot myself at translating the court documents. Part of which I&#8217;ve put up at the MindBlizzard site. This might give you an insight into the courts reasoning on the status of virtual goods, which most of the above comments are about.</p><p>You&#8217;ll find the translation at: <a
href="http://blog.mindblizzard.com/2008/10/court-ruling-in-runescape-case_26.html" rel="nofollow">MindBlizzard &#8211; Court Ruling in the RuneScape Case </a></p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: KevinMc</title><link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2008/10/23/netherlands-say-virtual-goods-are/comment-page-1/#comment-142366</link> <dc:creator>KevinMc</dc:creator> <pubDate>Sun, 26 Oct 2008 05:24:14 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/2008/10/23/netherlands-say-virtual-goods-are/#comment-142366</guid> <description>The crucial thing to remember here is that MMO companies DO NOT want their ingame items seen as property that has its own value independent of the game.  In the past, several attempts have been made to claim that since you can sell ingame goods for real cash (via ebay and such) that those goods have real value.
If such a ruling ever became the norm, it would spell the end of the MMO industry, at least as we know it today.  If Sony wanted to close Everquest, it could suddenly become liable for damages for all of the &quot;lost property&quot; of the players there.  Scary stuff!
I think that in this case, the judge&#039;s comments regarding electricity were valid; if I recall right, he compared the theft of the property to theft of electrical service, which is depriving the user of the service (or adding more cost to the service), not of a physical thing, but is still considered theft.
That works out OK.  Then the &quot;theft&quot; is not of an object, but of the use of part of a service you have paid for.  This covers the MMO, puts the kids who beat up (in the real world, guys, not online!) the other kid in deeper hot water, and sends a message that this sort of behavior is not OK just because it deals with imaginary items.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The crucial thing to remember here is that MMO companies DO NOT want their ingame items seen as property that has its own value independent of the game.  In the past, several attempts have been made to claim that since you can sell ingame goods for real cash (via ebay and such) that those goods have real value.</p><p>If such a ruling ever became the norm, it would spell the end of the MMO industry, at least as we know it today.  If Sony wanted to close Everquest, it could suddenly become liable for damages for all of the &#8220;lost property&#8221; of the players there.  Scary stuff!</p><p>I think that in this case, the judge&#8217;s comments regarding electricity were valid; if I recall right, he compared the theft of the property to theft of electrical service, which is depriving the user of the service (or adding more cost to the service), not of a physical thing, but is still considered theft.</p><p>That works out OK.  Then the &#8220;theft&#8221; is not of an object, but of the use of part of a service you have paid for.  This covers the MMO, puts the kids who beat up (in the real world, guys, not online!) the other kid in deeper hot water, and sends a message that this sort of behavior is not OK just because it deals with imaginary items.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Amaranthar</title><link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2008/10/23/netherlands-say-virtual-goods-are/comment-page-1/#comment-142352</link> <dc:creator>Amaranthar</dc:creator> <pubDate>Sat, 25 Oct 2008 17:59:19 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/2008/10/23/netherlands-say-virtual-goods-are/#comment-142352</guid> <description>Well, a hockey stick is an actual object. Wouldn&#039;t we want something that doesn&#039;t actually exist except in some &quot;etherial&quot; manner? The hardest part is finding something that is &quot;etherial&quot; as well as is &quot;rented&quot; under circumstances that allow ownership rights.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, a hockey stick is an actual object. Wouldn&#8217;t we want something that doesn&#8217;t actually exist except in some &#8220;etherial&#8221; manner? The hardest part is finding something that is &#8220;etherial&#8221; as well as is &#8220;rented&#8221; under circumstances that allow ownership rights.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Wolfe</title><link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2008/10/23/netherlands-say-virtual-goods-are/comment-page-1/#comment-142341</link> <dc:creator>Wolfe</dc:creator> <pubDate>Sat, 25 Oct 2008 09:31:40 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/2008/10/23/netherlands-say-virtual-goods-are/#comment-142341</guid> <description>How about an analogy which is a Hockey Player who is coerced by someone to always drop his club when the game starts?
On top of this we would need to have the organizations (teams, referees, etc) around Hockey not interfere when it happens. That player would be robbed of something, maybe the player would be robbed of the ability to make use of the investment of the club.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How about an analogy which is a Hockey Player who is coerced by someone to always drop his club when the game starts?</p><p>On top of this we would need to have the organizations (teams, referees, etc) around Hockey not interfere when it happens. That player would be robbed of something, maybe the player would be robbed of the ability to make use of the investment of the club.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Amaranthar</title><link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2008/10/23/netherlands-say-virtual-goods-are/comment-page-1/#comment-142336</link> <dc:creator>Amaranthar</dc:creator> <pubDate>Sat, 25 Oct 2008 02:19:06 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/2008/10/23/netherlands-say-virtual-goods-are/#comment-142336</guid> <description>&lt;blockquote&gt;We need a better real-world analogy than stocks.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Yes, stocks are more than just virtual. They are a piece of paper that carries ownership in the corporation.
The closest thing I can think of is music/song rights. Paul McCartney bought most the the Beatles song rights, and makes money every time one is played. But the right itself is what I&#039;m talking about. It has no physicality to it. The song is the song, not the CDs or albums that carry it. But every time it&#039;s played, the owner to the rights has the right to collect for that use.
Come to think of it, Raph, you posted some stuff about song rights once or twice a few years ago, I think.
Anyways, you may not be the one who made the song, but if you bought the rights, you own it. In MMOs, you paid for the rights to use the thangs you earn by paying for the account or directly if it&#039;s RMT through the producer.
There&#039;s still a difference though. The song rights are yours and no one else&#039;s. The thangs are only rented, I guess. I wonder if anyone ever &quot;rents&quot; the use of a songs rights out to someone who then claims the rights to the only use of it? Say in a TV ad?</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>We need a better real-world analogy than stocks.</p></blockquote><p>Yes, stocks are more than just virtual. They are a piece of paper that carries ownership in the corporation.</p><p>The closest thing I can think of is music/song rights. Paul McCartney bought most the the Beatles song rights, and makes money every time one is played. But the right itself is what I&#8217;m talking about. It has no physicality to it. The song is the song, not the CDs or albums that carry it. But every time it&#8217;s played, the owner to the rights has the right to collect for that use.</p><p>Come to think of it, Raph, you posted some stuff about song rights once or twice a few years ago, I think.</p><p>Anyways, you may not be the one who made the song, but if you bought the rights, you own it. In MMOs, you paid for the rights to use the thangs you earn by paying for the account or directly if it&#8217;s RMT through the producer.</p><p>There&#8217;s still a difference though. The song rights are yours and no one else&#8217;s. The thangs are only rented, I guess. I wonder if anyone ever &#8220;rents&#8221; the use of a songs rights out to someone who then claims the rights to the only use of it? Say in a TV ad?</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Rik</title><link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2008/10/23/netherlands-say-virtual-goods-are/comment-page-1/#comment-142335</link> <dc:creator>Rik</dc:creator> <pubDate>Fri, 24 Oct 2008 23:37:49 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/2008/10/23/netherlands-say-virtual-goods-are/#comment-142335</guid> <description>Getting back to the football example, what if the game is being played &quot;for keeps&quot;.  If we had a virtual world where people in it could have their pockets picked within the rules, then isn&#039;t carring items a risk players have agreed to take?  Like playing marbles, where whoever wins your marbles gets to take it home?  That&#039;s not called stealing.  It&#039;s called gambling.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Getting back to the football example, what if the game is being played &#8220;for keeps&#8221;.  If we had a virtual world where people in it could have their pockets picked within the rules, then isn&#8217;t carring items a risk players have agreed to take?  Like playing marbles, where whoever wins your marbles gets to take it home?  That&#8217;s not called stealing.  It&#8217;s called gambling.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Mudora</title><link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2008/10/23/netherlands-say-virtual-goods-are/comment-page-1/#comment-142334</link> <dc:creator>Mudora</dc:creator> <pubDate>Fri, 24 Oct 2008 23:25:12 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/2008/10/23/netherlands-say-virtual-goods-are/#comment-142334</guid> <description>The only real thing I feel like commenting on is Eolirin&#039;s statements. About how in game theft according to the rules was any less illegal than out of game theft circumventing the rules. Basically, the virtual world, runscape is a world all it&#039;s own that Jagex has jurisdiction over. They write the laws and if they were to say that theft is legal than it would be. It&#039;s their land, virtual or not, and they have the right to make whatever laws they please. If you are not comfortable with the idea of legal theft, legal murder, or any other law Jagex makes, then you simply don&#039;t play the game. If you don&#039;t have a problem with their laws, then you admit that you are okay with the possibility of being virtually stolen from or murdered. At least that&#039;s the way I see it.
In summary, virtual goods are property that whatever virtual proprietor is responsible for making the rules and regulations for. Also, the current punishments for out of game theft or coercion are insane and uncalled for. A small fine and the return of the taken virtual property seems much more fair.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The only real thing I feel like commenting on is Eolirin&#8217;s statements. About how in game theft according to the rules was any less illegal than out of game theft circumventing the rules. Basically, the virtual world, runscape is a world all it&#8217;s own that Jagex has jurisdiction over. They write the laws and if they were to say that theft is legal than it would be. It&#8217;s their land, virtual or not, and they have the right to make whatever laws they please. If you are not comfortable with the idea of legal theft, legal murder, or any other law Jagex makes, then you simply don&#8217;t play the game. If you don&#8217;t have a problem with their laws, then you admit that you are okay with the possibility of being virtually stolen from or murdered. At least that&#8217;s the way I see it.</p><p>In summary, virtual goods are property that whatever virtual proprietor is responsible for making the rules and regulations for. Also, the current punishments for out of game theft or coercion are insane and uncalled for. A small fine and the return of the taken virtual property seems much more fair.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Morgan Ramsay</title><link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2008/10/23/netherlands-say-virtual-goods-are/comment-page-1/#comment-142328</link> <dc:creator>Morgan Ramsay</dc:creator> <pubDate>Fri, 24 Oct 2008 21:34:16 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/2008/10/23/netherlands-say-virtual-goods-are/#comment-142328</guid> <description>&lt;blockquote&gt;The boys forced him to a house and there he was kicked and threatened with a knife, until he transferred the goods and credits...&lt;/blockquote&gt;
I don&#039;t think that means they forced him into a virtual house...
A U.S. court probably would not have arrived at the same ruling. Over here, the attackers would have been treated as adults under the law, and charged with assault, battery, attempted murder, and then theft (as theft can apply to unlawful appropriation of services.) They would be imprisoned for a long time, not merely ordered to perform community service.
And then the press would have a field day, interviewing &quot;experts&quot; a la Jack Thomspon to condemn how murder simulators like Runescape incite children to violence. Watchdog organizations would rush to the aid of the children who were convicted, claiming that they were brainwashed by fancy, multimillion-dollar marketing campaigns...</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>The boys forced him to a house and there he was kicked and threatened with a knife, until he transferred the goods and credits&#8230;</p></blockquote><p>I don&#8217;t think that means they forced him into a virtual house&#8230;</p><p>A U.S. court probably would not have arrived at the same ruling. Over here, the attackers would have been treated as adults under the law, and charged with assault, battery, attempted murder, and then theft (as theft can apply to unlawful appropriation of services.) They would be imprisoned for a long time, not merely ordered to perform community service.</p><p>And then the press would have a field day, interviewing &#8220;experts&#8221; a la Jack Thomspon to condemn how murder simulators like Runescape incite children to violence. Watchdog organizations would rush to the aid of the children who were convicted, claiming that they were brainwashed by fancy, multimillion-dollar marketing campaigns&#8230;</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> </channel> </rss>
