http://www.mmocrunch.com/2008/08/06/return-of-the-sandbox/

It doesn’t have to have forced dedication to a guild, but it does need to have forced interdepence on other players. If it doesn’t, if it’s completely soloable, then you don’t really have a worldy game. You can make the interdependence more or less of an impact on play, but you can’t remove it. Buying an item from a player run shop is an action that requires interdepence. If you cannot buy that item from an NPC merchant, and you need the item, then you have to, in some way, interact with players. This does eventually cause problems; even in a game like WoW, you can still end up at a place where you cannot easily get an item that you absolutely need because the other players aren’t offering it to you via the low impact systems like the auction house. Directly interfacing with strangers is a barrier to entry. A game that’s designed to function around these sorts of direct interactions, or even one that simply makes them occur more often, will bounce a certain number of people off.

This is an interesting statement. I think it’s wrong though. First of all, I don’t think buying something from another player is really interaction, it’s just like buying from an NPC. If there’s a problem with finding the item, assuming it’s a common item, then that’s a problem with the game’s design.

One thing here. WoW has all those items in all those levels. It’s easy to see how an item can be very hard to find. It’s the levels vs. quest/drop/manufacture that makes it this way. In a worldly game, it’s different. A knife is a knife, and only when you get into rare things such as magical knives that you run into problems in availability. So if you’re looking for a Magical Knife of Hair Splitting, that may be hard to find (and in truth I’ve yet to find one anywhere ). But that’s a separate thing from a knife to cut up leathers with.
What I’m saying is that in my idea of a worldly game, you shouldn’t have WoW like levels that separate things like in EQ clones. And they separate many things, like this and in social aspects of steering and dividing players to areas and associations.

In worldly games, always look to real life for answers. If something is hard to find, there should be some communication system to spread word around. Bulletin boards, town cryers/agents, letters, etc. And organizations to communicate with, guilds.

Also, even in a worldly game, solo play should certainly be possible. That doesn’t mean that a single player can solo the worlds mightiest dragon, but that he should be able to hunt and fight things of his ability range, or manufacture things and sell them to NPCs or players, or whatever.
You could solo in UO, if not for the rampant PK problems back then. What was amazing was that you could actually play with other players without having to group up. Griefers looting your kills or players getting out of hand had a risk to it. Add a justice system to keep players from using force to take, and it’s a good way to go. Much more fluid and easy to work with than “grouping” or trying to maintain guilds while players out-level others.

Finally, if when you create a character he is automatically in a city (guild like structure), that doesn’t mean you have to play like that. Buying things from merchant players, hunting and bringing in assets to the city economy, etc., it all makes a player an asset to the community. And a good worldly game should have design that enhances that.

Derek Licciardi’s game theories (over at Ages of Athiria) state that new players will be sought by the city and guild associations because they can contribute too. This is how I always looked at the way “it should be”. Whether it’s through taxes, or just simple economic interactions, any player should be an asset just by doing what they choose to do.

Even in a non-ffa game, but one with territory control, I can come up with a ton of ways to grief my fellow players just using that single mechanic.

Warhammer Online is a obvious gamey MMO and have territory control and is a game about a war aka grief other players and conquer their territory xD

In many “gamey” MMOs interdependecy is required, you can’t solo the best contents or do PvP, in these MMOs I spend many hours waiting for gruping for a instance, markets and auctiog house are interdependency mechanics, etc… A MMO without some interdependency is a solo game with other people around, and in the end not a MMO.

RTS and FPS games are a poor example, especially because there’s no comparible world component.

RTS and FPS can have a game world attached in the future, and currently have a strong modder comunitys, a persistent world can provide to all these people a structurated enviroment for things that they currently do, and in the end create a worldy MMO. Some FPS are walk the first steps in that direction.

Being appealing to hardcores and casuals isn’t inherently worldy or gamey either,

With your definition worldy MMOs are only for the hardcore crow, the casual gameplay is anti-barriers for nature.

Worldy games start by defining the world that players will exist in, the end point you’re getting is one of simulation; you want to create that world so that it’s as if people are really living in it. Gamey games start from the other end; they’re attempting to create a specific tailored gameplay experience, rather than set up a system for players to generate their own gameplay.

A specific tailored gameplay experience can create a breathing and living game world, period.

Worldy games by their very nature require the interaction of the playerbase in order to generate gameplay on a deeper level; they’re trying to simulate a real world, not a pattern of behavior.

Direct interactions don’t are mandatoty for do a worldy MMO, many minigames interacting can create the sensation what you are in some place. Players can interact throught minigames -tailored gameplay experiences-, some people play to create cities, other play to manage guilds or shops, other play their combat role or crafting profession, and other people can play to create quest.

I doubt that only interdependecy makes a MMO less accesible, I can have interdependency without be forced to play the game gruped or direct interactions, asincronic gameplay is possible in a persistent world, the interdependency can be IA based in their most part, a player can enter ten minutes to the game world from any place from his phone and change something and that changue have a influence in the gameplay of other player inclusive when the first player is offline. A wordly MMO is a game where the most casual average MMO player -that only play for fast fun and inmmediate reward- have the sensation that enters in a changing and living world, not in a static theme park. Player made content is the key for that, not some essentialist and narrow concept.

Taking your theory to the extreme every MMORPG is inviable because other people cause troubles, then, why we need do MMORPGs or online games in the first place? Is a bussines without future, any small interdependece can remove players for the world, if Blizzard cut the auction house and player trades perhaps they can win a million players more, go Blizzard go! Cut the auction house and trade, that will do your playerbase very happy… Oh, wait, talk with strangers is a barreir, remove the chat window, now!

I not believe in essentialist concepts, if you want that for making my worldy MMO proyect viable call these MMO a gamey world I can do that, in the end is the same game. Yes, I repeat, wordly MMOs are games, not military or aerospatial simulations, not virtual worlds. Worldy MMOs and gamey MMOs are compatible because both are GAMES and are developed how GAMES.

It’s nice to see that everyone has decided that worldy games will cannot have permadeath, no matter how radically different the design may be. Actually, it’s nice to see people are considering that the designs of future games will definitely follow all the same rules of the games we’ve already seen. Go innovation!

Many things in the MMOs that we’ve already seen have are undeveloped or cutted or not implemented for the most MMOs currently in the market. If the first wave of MMORPG have the most of their ideas without development, we must changue the rules? Many old MMOs ideas will be see how innovative for many people that only played WoW, we can’t put all our effort in radical innovation without develop correctly these things to their full potential.

But I think that the best of the gamey will have bigger numbers than the best of the worldy, no matter what the state of either is. On the other hand, UO is still around after 10 years (almost 11, no?), and EVE can only be considered a successful product. Considering that EVE is pretty broken in many respects, I’d say that there’s an awful lot of room to grow there too. You can get very good numbers, just not WoW or Club Penguin numbers. Both of which are really gamey MMOGs at the core, which just goes to show how “gamey” is an immensely broad categorization for MMOGs. (I’d include Habbo Hotel, but that one’s actually hard to classify, it doesn’t seem to have enough game or world-like elements to make it more than a nifty chatroom, kinda like Facebook but with spatial representation and graphics)

FFA PVP isn’t the issue. It’s the concept that players are in control of their environments. Even in a non-ffa game, but one with territory control, I can come up with a ton of ways to grief my fellow players just using that single mechanic. I might have a hard time pulling them all off by my lonesome, but a group of players is bound to do so just because they can… if the population gets big enough.

Also a wordly MMO is a place where casual and hardcore players can live together. Other games how RTS and FPS can be played in a core or casual manner, but some hardcore player have the commitment for do their own mods, game maps and campaings with tools provided by the developers, and other more casual players can install these mods and play few hours in a raining day.

RTS and FPS games are a poor example, especially because there’s no comparible world component. But also, player generated content is not inherently a worldy game feature. Having such a feature doesn’t speak to the worldy-ness or the gamey-ness of the game. It only speaks to whether the dev team is leveraging player creativity.

Because, as you yourself say:

If a solo player complete a quest created by other player or guild, in example harvest some resources the guild (the classic “kill ten rats for their ears” quest), what is the difference with solo play a quest created by devs?

There answer is that there isn’t any, which is why it has no bearing on the discussion of what makes a game worldy or gamey. If WoW implemented a system for players to create new quests, it’d still be a gamey game.

Being appealing to hardcores and casuals isn’t inherently worldy or gamey either, and if anything I’d say that the gamey games have a much easier time of it. WoW, as an example, manages to cater to both the hardcore raid and the more casual non-raid players, and it does it very well.

Why a worldy MMO must have forced dedication with a guild?

It doesn’t have to have forced dedication to a guild, but it does need to have forced interdepence on other players. If it doesn’t, if it’s completely soloable, then you don’t really have a worldy game. You can make the interdependence more or less of an impact on play, but you can’t remove it. Buying an item from a player run shop is an action that requires interdepence. If you cannot buy that item from an NPC merchant, and you need the item, then you have to, in some way, interact with players. This does eventually cause problems; even in a game like WoW, you can still end up at a place where you cannot easily get an item that you absolutely need because the other players aren’t offering it to you via the low impact systems like the auction house. Directly interfacing with strangers is a barrier to entry. A game that’s designed to function around these sorts of direct interactions, or even one that simply makes them occur more often, will bounce a certain number of people off.

Why that docotomy wordly vs. gamey MMOs?

Worldy and Gamey aren’t terms I invented to create a division, they’re terms that have been being used loosely for a very long time. Worldy games are rooted from a fundamental assumption, Gamey games are rooted from a different, incompatible, one. Everything else that people have been talking about are implementation issues, but the core elements of what makes a worldy game worldy and a gamey game gamey, are fairly defined. Worldy games start by defining the world that players will exist in, the end point you’re getting is one of simulation; you want to create that world so that it’s as if people are really living in it. Gamey games start from the other end; they’re attempting to create a specific tailored gameplay experience, rather than set up a system for players to generate their own gameplay. Worldy games by their very nature require the interaction of the playerbase in order to generate gameplay on a deeper level; they’re trying to simulate a real world, not a pattern of behavior. That’s why there’s all the levels of interdependence, and the tendency for open pvp systems.

In a worldy game, the actions you can take that have been hardcoded are not the point; it’s in the way that you interact with the other players and the world. In a gamey game, the things you can do that go beyond the hardcoded actions are only icing on the cake, not the cake itself.

These lines are lines you can’t cross when you’re doing high level concept, at least not without ending up with a hopelessly hydra like entity, constantly fighting with it’s own heads. You need to start from one end or the other, and then work out how to temper the downsides.

Gamey MMOs more accesible?

Yes, they are. They don’t require interdependce and they don’t rely on the playerbase to derive a sense of purpose. That makes them inherently more accessible. Everything else you’ve mentioned is an implementation issue, but it has nothing to do with what makes the game gamey or worldy. You can shrug off the concept of a multiplayer game that makes “grouping” bad, but that’s one of the strengths of the pre-raid game in WoW, and part of what’s helped it become such a huge success. You can solo. That was something of a first.

And none of the things you go on to mention really have to do with the problem or the divide. It’s got nothing to do with grind, it’s got nothing to do with mob squashing, or questing. Hell, I could make a gamey MMOG that’s entirely about crafting, in which there is absolutely zero combat. But it’d still be a gamey MMOG if it lacked certain worldy concepts. This isn’t about the feature set, but the starting assumption behind such games.

@Derek,

@Eolirin I’m not ready to admit that the entire science of MMO design has come down to your hardcoded assumptions. Sure they ring true today given the design parameters that surround existing WoW clones and such, but your assertions sound very much like you’ve given up on the idea of anything successful that isn’t a WoW clone.

You’re reading me wrong. I never said that. I, in fact, said that a good worldy game could be very successful, at least in terms of things like profit. But it’s never going to be comparable in terms of sheer numbers. That’s the core difference. Whether the reduced numbers are successful depends on your criteria for success. Blockbuster on the other hand, has a different connotation, namely one of absolutely massive numbers, and I don’t think you’ll see that, at least in comparsion to gamey games. And that’s the only point of contention I had in the earlier discussion.

You’ve managed to miss what I’m actually saying, and I think you all have really; it isn’t that you can’t make these games, but that you should never expect WoW like numbers from them. A simple thing, but that lack of understanding is part of why SWG’s producers got so angsty over the relatively low subs, even though the game wasn’t exactly bleeding cash.

I’ve actually made a number of on-paper worldy designs, and I’d love to try implementing some of them once Metaplace hits (where’s our Beta Raph? ), but I’m under no illusions that even with a large sum of money and a big team that I’d be able to achieve a multi-million user base with them. They’re deliberately niche, and while I think they could be profitable or even successful under certain criteria, that’s different from being “zomg, so many users!”

@Michael Chui,

UO.

Relatively small pk population, but a large population bleed off that stablized and reversed the second Trammel was offered. Even the potential of being PKed, despite the fact that the reputation system severely curtailed the ability for the PK to function, was enough to keep people away. Removing just that possibility but keeping the rest of the game pretty much exactly the same resulted in a population resurgence.

Please name one example of a single individual causing a large group of players to stop playing.

Define “large group”. I saw about 15 people stop playing World of Warcraft because one person typed in all capital letters, once. The guild broke into two groups, and the smaller group had everyone quit with in a month.

On lighter news, I do have an idea for a worldly MMO with permadeath and PvP, and I think they can work together just fine. The real trick is to bring danger to combat. You’ll see a lot less ganking if the attacker though he could die, or lose a limb.

It’s the anti-socials that are the problem. You can’t control their behavior, because they only thing they get out of the game is in causing havoc. They don’t act in their best interests, they act to cause as much havoc as humanly possible within the limits of the rules. You’re underestimating the problem. These are your 4% of the population that are psycopaths. They *really* mess up your game.

Please name one example of a single individual causing a large group of players to stop playing.

In other news,

It’s nice to see that everyone has decided that worldy games will cannot have permadeath, no matter how radically different the design may be. Actually, it’s nice to see people are considering that the designs of future games will definitely follow all the same rules of the games we’ve already seen. Go innovation!