To the comments made so far: it’s perfectly understandable that MMORPGs tend to shy away from allowing player choices (much less monster choices) have a real impact on the world, but I think a virtual world with real consequences for actions is feasible, and I think it would make for a fantastic game experience, myself. Here’s hoping someone has the guts to actually make it.

Are there games where I can valiantly fight evil [sorry Morgan ] without it respawning?

The obvious solution is to stop making them persistent. Building games where you can see forever is bound to drive people insane. Er, I mean, to repetitive heroics.

But I’m being theoretical.

A different solution is to stop making them all about fighting.

But this is all ground that’s been covered before. People keep not doing it. *shrugs*

I have to wonder why, when all our heroes fight for noble motives, when we ourselves have a chance to step into the story as heroes we choose instead to play games where we fight for only the meanest of reasons. Superman does not stop villains to steal their stuff. Arthur did not fight the Saxons for the experience, or their “phat lewt”. Our heroes fight for noble reasons – it is what makes them good! Why when we fantasize about our own adventures do we not aim for the same?

I’ve been pondering this for a while. In my case I think it’s because the VW is persistent. I can valiantly put an end to Villain_004 but in short order he or she will respawn. Its hard to think of Superman as a real hero when he’s just farming a Lex Luthor spawn. If he’s not getting lewt [phat or vendor trash] or experience there’s not much sense in clicking the mouse buttons because there’s not much potential for the warm fuzzies of heroism.

Are there games where I can valiantly fight evil [sorry Morgan ] without it respawning?

So the veneer is VERY thin, and makes the fiction of these things being a credible threat hard to believe.

They’re called hate crimes. ;p

Arthur did not fight the Saxons for the experience, or their “phat lewt”.

Depends on who you read.

For example, tradition tells the story of William Wallace being a hero of Scotland. In reality, he was a brigand, a la Robin Hood, living in a forest with his gang of thieves. Wallace was a wanted man, having assassinated a sheriff, likely in the course of a crime. The opportunity to join a battle and “earn phat loot” presented itself, and so began his enrollment in the cause for liberty.

Alexander Ramsay of Dalhousie was a real Scottish patriot, but his story isn’t nearly as fancy as the tall tales told about Wallace. The Douglas clan murdered Alexander by imprisoning and starving him in a castle dungeon. Since Alexander was a sheriff at the time, his murderer William Douglas, grandson of William Douglas the Hardy who fought alongside William Wallace at Scone, lost the favor of King David II, son of Robert the Bruce. A small justice, but that will have to do.

In MMOGs, though, what is the motive for killing? There is a thin veneer where we are told that these critters – Murlocs, or orcs, or whatever – are a threat, and will do awful things to us, our friends, and our loved ones if we let them. But they don’t. The Murlocs don’t raid Stormwind, in WOW. If you stop killing spiders in LOTRO, they won’t start eating the local sheep and starve the townspeople. So the veneer is VERY thin, and makes the fiction of these things being a credible threat hard to believe.

So why DO we kill these things? To get their gold, and to raise our stats. At the core, that is why almost every player “grinds” away at whatever monsters they fight. And…that’s killing for greed, isn’t it? That’s killing for base reasons, and technically “evil”.

I have to wonder why, when all our heroes fight for noble motives, when we ourselves have a chance to step into the story as heroes we choose instead to play games where we fight for only the meanest of reasons. Superman does not stop villains to steal their stuff. Arthur did not fight the Saxons for the experience, or their “phat lewt”. Our heroes fight for noble reasons – it is what makes them good! Why when we fantasize about our own adventures do we not aim for the same?

(Interesting debate started about this here: http://mmorpgmaker.vault.ign.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=7683 )

http://friesian.com/divebomb.htm

“Zen and the Art of Divebombing, or The Dark Side of the Tao”

I think it’s relevant, but I’m not up to condensing it properly for consumption. So you’ll have to read the long, long write-up.

It has happened, historically, many times, that groups have been evil.

The word “evil” is best avoided when some other meaning than (inherent) “estrangement from a deity” is intended.

I’m wondering at the push for the “there’s no evil” sentiment. Something to do with Metaplace? Does moral commentary have a place in games?

Nothing to do with Metaplace, no. And yes, of course moral commentary has a place in games. Say, rather, that games have moral commentary whether we wish them to or not.

There is undoubtedly evil, to my mind. But I don’t think we always understand what is evil and what is venality, what is self-interest and what is maliciousness.

And I am particularly skeptical and cautious when one group calls another evil. It has happened, historically, many times, that groups have been evil. But I think the namecalling has happened a lot more often.