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By N2H
Welcome to Raph Koster's personal website: MMOs, gaming, writing, art, music, books.

Tired of hearing about the NGE

June 12th, 2007

So, here it is, a few years later, and we’re still seeing articles on the NGE. And honestly, I’m getting a little tired of it. In this case, I actually declined to comment for the article, but there’s nonetheless a giant inset quote from me dug up from ages ago (which irritates me, honestly). I had declined because I just didn’t want to perpetuate the discussion.

Why? Well, for one, it does feel a bit like the whole thing has turned into a bit of a punching bag. For example, the article claims that SOE has not apologized. But John Smedley has gone on record with saying it was an error several times now. All sorts of motives get ascribed to all sorts of people that just don’t fit with what I know of them.

Julio Torres is not the devil — in fact, he was a hardcore Entertainer in SWG, not an RP-hater. Jeff Freeman is a smart talented designer — he did the SWG pet system, so it’s not like he was out to remove it — and NGE wasn’t his initiative anyway. Smed is a guy who cares deeply about customers, whom I have personally seen spend hours on the phone talking to just one in order to try to resolve their issues. And yet all these guys regularly get vilified in forums regardless of what their actual roles were or what they feel about the subject, in large part because their names happen to be public. In the end, it all just feels a bit unfair, in large part because only fragments of the story are even available. And the story is going to stay unavailable because of confidentiality agreements.

I know this is likely going to prove unpopular with a lot of folks who read this blog. And I am not out to defend the NGE. Rather, I’m saying that until the subject can be discussed a bit more dispassionately, it’s difficult to discuss at all. And I am as guilty as anyone of speaking provocatively about it. But I feel burned out on the whole discussion, because so little of it seems productive.

Knowing the author of the article, I’m sure that it wasn’t his intent to merely fan flames. And I know that anything I said in the past is always out there on the Net, ready to come back to haunt me. I also know that anyone whose name is publicly associated with something, like mine, or Smed’s, or Jeff’s or Julio’s, is going to be fair game. But my personal take on the issue is more nuanced than what I see in the discussions and articles, which have uncomfortable tones of pitchforks and fires. I’m thrilled that something I worked on aroused such passion in people. I’ve also had to move on.

So yeah, I’m kinda tired of reading articles about the NGE, particularly ones that paint these adversarial relationships with people I still talk to regularly and whom I know to be good people. I doubt that anyone will simply stop talking about it, but as for me, I’m staying out of it, because regardless of how I feel about the NGE itself, I think that the real lessons of it are mostly stuff that isn’t even visible to the public. (For example, IMHO the real lesson is about data mining, and not about any of the stuff that gets talked about).

The flaming of me may now commence. :)

*

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184 Responses to “Tired of hearing about the NGE”

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  1. Free Games Portal | Online game news, articles and downloads wrote on

    original IP will ensure that major publishers don’t crash and burn - see Majesco’s near-death for a great example of why this is the case. Secondly, Allen Varney is the most consistently readable and smart of all The Escapists’ contributors, despite some controversy - and is at least straightforward, for pity’s sake - and his interview with Magic The Gathering creator Richard Garfield is a model of well-researched rigor. Bravo, that man - more of this, please!

  2. That's No Moon | Broken Toys wrote on

    [...] take on the article is over here: http://www.raphkoster.com/2007/06/12/tired-of-hearing-about-the-nge/ Posting your comment… Have your [...]

  3. Boobs, Galaxies at MMOG Nation wrote on

    [...] After reading some comments by Raph over on his site, I went back and read to the end of Varney’s piece more carefully.  He [...]

  4. RLMMO :: View topic - Good SWG Article on The Escapist wrote on

    [...] Raph responded on his blog: clicky[/ur] I completely agree with him, and suggest to Raph a triple-sliced flame retardant suit…. [...]

  5. WorldIV » A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away... wrote on

    [...] reaction has been swift. Raph Koster asks us to stop moaning about his friends. So yeah, I’m kinda tired of reading articles about the NGE, particularly ones that paint these [...]

  6. Koster: Tired of Hearing about the NGE - SWG/DE Foren wrote on

    [...] der Chef-Entwickler von SWG lange bevor der NGE verffentlicht wurde. Er beklagt sich nun in seinem Blog darber, dass viele Developer die mehr oder weniger daran beteiligt waren, bis heute behelligt [...]

  7. The Escapist rehashes NGE - SWGwYaMB wrote on

    [...] Raph Koster just wants it all to stop: Julio Torres is not the devil — in fact, he was a hardcore Entertainer in SWG, not an RP-hater. [...]

  8. A Long Time Ago... In an MMO Far Far Away... - Syntheticist wrote on

    [...] and foolish. Varney was little separated from that.Syntheticist will leave the last comment to Raph Koster, the original designer of SW:G, who also responded to the piece.I feel burned out on the whole [...]

  9. Zen of Design»Blog Archive » Do You Really Only Get One Launch? wrote on

    [...] up resulting in a downgrade of subscribers. Of course, this has all been said before, and some are sick of hearing it. I’ve only brought it up because I’ve concluded that the maxim “You only get one [...]

  10. The Common Sense Gamer » Blog Archive » Move along little doggies wrote on

    [...] I think it’s time for us to move on. I tend to agree with Raph on this one. I think players who are still hung up on this need to do one two things, 1) get [...]

  11. Apparently Raph Is Tired of Talking NGE - Relics of Corbantis Forums wrote on

    [...] have to love this. Apparently the Escapist has an NGE story on its web site.This story apparently caught the eye of Raph Koster, who is wondering why people still care. And basically defending Smed and Company. And making it [...]

  12. Azaroth » Blog Archive » This is fun. wrote on

    [...] Apparently Raph is tired of hearing about the NGE. [...]

  13. Razorwire : News : Time heals all wounds, except the SWG NGE wrote on

    [...] like The Escapist has stirred a hornets nest over at Lum’s house and positively has knocked over some potted plants at Raph’s place. Allen Varney’s article, Blowing Up Galaxies, has caused Raph to whine that he is tired of hearing [...]

  14. Zen of Design wrote on

    Post. The most audacious attempt for a box product to escape its launch velocity and graduate to a new order of magnitude, by most reports, ended up resulting in a downgrade of subscribers. Of course, this has all been said before, and some are sick of hearing it. I’ve only brought it up because I’ve concluded that the maxim “You only get one launch” isn’t always true, though, and it’s clear that there are some situations where games have ’slow burned

  15. Raph Koster - The Other Guild wrote on

    [...] http://www.raphkoster.com/2007/06/12/tired…e-nge/#commentsSo, here it is, a few years later, and were still seeing articles on the NGE. And honestly, Im getting a little tired of it. In this case, I actually declined to comment for the article, but theres nonetheless a giant inset quote from me dug up from ages ago (which irritates me, honestly). I had declined because I just didnt want to perpetuate the discussion.Why? Well, for one, it does feel a bit like the whole thing has turned into a bit of a punching bag. For example, the article claims that SOE has not apologized. But John Smedley has gone on record with saying it was an error several times now. All sorts of motives get ascribed to all sorts of people that just dont fit with what I know of them.Julio Torres is not the devil in fact, he was a hardcore Entertainer in SWG, not an RP-hater. Jeff Freeman is a smart talented designer he did the SWG pet system, so its not like he was out to remove it and NGE wasnt his initiative anyway. Smed is a guy who cares deeply about customers, whom I have personally seen spend hours on the phone talking to just one in order to try to resolve their issues. And yet all these guys regularly get vilified in forums regardless of what their actual roles were or what they feel about the subject, in large part because their names happen to be public. In the end, it all just feels a bit unfair, in large part because only fragments of the story are even available. And the story is going to stay unavailable because of confidentiality agreements.I know this is likely going to prove unpopular with a lot of folks who read this blog. And I am not out to defend the NGE. Rather, Im saying that until the subject can be discussed a bit more dispassionately, its difficult to discuss at all. And I am as guilty as anyone of speaking provocatively about it. But I feel burned out on the whole discussion, because so little of it seems productive.Knowing the author of the article, Im sure that it wasnt his intent to merely fan flames. And I know that anything I said in the past is always out there on the Net, ready to come back to haunt me. I also know that anyone whose name is publicly associated with something, like mine, or Smeds, or Jeffs or Julios, is going to be fair game. But my personal take on the issue is more nuanced than what I see in the discussions and articles, which have uncomfortable tones of pitchforks and fires. Im thrilled that something I worked on aroused such passion in people. Ive also had to move on.So yeah, Im kinda tired of reading articles about the NGE, particularly ones that paint these adversarial relationships with people I still talk to regularly and whom I know to be good people. I doubt that anyone will simply stop talking about it, but as for me, Im staying out of it, because regardless of how I feel about the NGE itself, I think that the real lessons of it are mostly stuff that isnt even visible to the public. (For example, IMHO the real lesson is about data mining, and not about any of the stuff that gets talked about).The flaming of me may now commence. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) * [...]

  16. Raph is tired of hearing about the NGE - Forums wrote on

    [...] Raph is tired of hearing about the NGE http://www.raphkoster.com/2007/06/12…about-the-nge/ [...]

  17. Moorgard.com » Blog Archive » You Have Much to Learn, My Young Padawan wrote on

    [...] enough trouble healing on their own. But all the recent hubbub, observations, clarifications, and reluctant rehashings make it hard to resist throwing my coppers into the [...]

  18. Any Goons still play SWG? - The Something Awful Forums wrote on

    [...] recently posted a rant about the NGE http://www.raphkoster.com/2007/06/1…-about-the-nge/ Kinda interesting. It doesn’t really tell you anything that hasn’t already been made public, but [...]

  19. Star Wars Galaxies Stratics - General News wrote on

    [...] provoked Raph to share his thoughts on the topic and the author.The following post can be found at Raph Koster.com.So, here it is, a few years later, and were still seeing articles on the NGE. And honestly, Im [...]

  20. Julio Torres is not the devil by Raph Koster - True Galaxies wrote on

    [...] Raph to share his thoughts on the topic and the author. The following post can be found at Raph Koster.com. So, here it is, a few years later, and we’re still seeing articles on the NGE. And honestly, [...]

  21. Sounds like a lot of people want more Variety!!! (Professions) wrote on

    [...] snake_03 wrote:Kenobi26 wrote:I might be off base here….but who likes 9 "iconic starwarsy" profs only? Who loves the only melee class as Jedi? (Don't even insult yourself by trying to say that the bastardized melee smear in the other profs is true melee) I've read dozens of posts over the past months since you streamlined the game to "Star Wars for dummies" concerning the limited choices in professions.  It used to be NGE vs Pre-cu…but now that is all over with NGE is obviously here to stay - but what I'm hearing isn't the mechanics of the game itself, or combat systems or any of that - it's the stupid profession wheels with cookie-cutter portraits, and limited choices people are tired of. I think people want more profession choices, want more options for cross-specialization (more than just profession x + Beast master combos), and want something that looks more like expertise trees expanded to a 4×4 box screen like we used to have. Don't change the stats, the combat, or any other dynamic except the profession trees and number of choices as well as hybrid options, and see what happens. Why is it you're allowing beast master as a pseudo-hybrid prof, but BH-Medic isn't viable, or Commando-spy? Or hell, just give people otpions to pick from marksman, brawler and scout pools to meet pre-requisites to become their chosen prof? (remember master marks+ 2 scout trees was BH? Very cool way to do things. Don't tell us ya lost the code to redesign some prof trees and erase those silly iconic portraits) Think about it….anyone prefer the 9 iconic profs with no diversity tell me. KenobiWell, back when we had more professions pre-nge it was kind of fun, I miss being a ranger. However, considering that we have alot of folks asking for fixes and nerfs on what we have now, I can't see Soe adding more professsions. That would  just open the door for more nerf cries and bugs. This is just another I hate the NGE post and as Raph Koster stated last week in his blog.   Tired of hearing about the NGE [...]

  22. The Escapist : News : Millions of Voices Suddenly Cried Out wrote on

    [...] the blog of Raph Koster, former Creative Director of Star Wars Galaxies: Knowing the author of the article, I’m sure that [...]

  23. Multiverse Network :: View topic - The Escapist: Blowing Up Galaxies wrote on

    [...] Did anyone else look at the other developer’s responses? I started out over at Moorgard (which is down at this time with a bad config of some sort) here: http://www.moorgard.com/?p=134 I finished up over at Raph’s place: http://www.raphkoster.com/2007/06/12/tired-of-hearing-about-the-nge/ [...]

  24. GuildCafe / Star Wars Galaxies: lessons learned from the NGE wrote on

    [...] up Galaxieshttp://www.escapistmagazine.com/issue/101/14 Raph responded in his blog over his quote.http://www.raphkoster.com/2007/06/12/tired-of-hearing-about-the-nge Then he responded over the blog itself [...]

  25. Recent Posts wrote on

    [...] read the article and Raph Koster's reaction a bit ago. I mostly agree with him: Smedley HAS apologized, and he's even quoted in the [...]

  26. Star Wars Galaxies: Blowing Up Galaxies on The Escapist - MMOz wrote on

    [...] Koster is Tired of hearing about the NGE Thats No Moon on Broken [...]

  27. GameSetWatch - The Escapist Redesigns... Closer To Reality? wrote on

    [...] Varney is the most consistently readable and smart of all The Escapists’ contributors, despite some controversy - and is at least straightforward, for pity’s sake - and his interview with Magic The Gathering [...]

  28. Electronic Zone » The Escapist Redesigns… Closer To Reality? wrote on

    [...] is the most consistently readable and smart of all The Escapists’ contributors, despite some controversy - and is at least straightforward, for pity’s sake - and his interview with Magic The [...]

  29. Appolgies aren't always enough - Horizons Forums wrote on

    [...] on SWG) who is sick of hearing about it and mentions that Smedley has apologized repeatedly Raph’s site *June 1, 2007 - SWG Vault Reconciliation Mentions a recent interview but doesn’t cite it *June 15, [...]

  30. Simfoony » Blog Archive » Star Wars: Galaxies, una historia de sangre, sudor y lágrimas wrote on

    [...] ultimo arreglo final y que firmo la sentencia de muerte de SW:G fue, aunque Raph este cansado de oirlo, el New Game Enhancements que eran un remake completo del juego. Simplificándolo en exceso, [...]

  31. Simfoony wrote on

    de combate a nivel mínimo te movías por los planetas iniciales con tranquilidad, tras el CU un mob cutre de Tatooine te podia matar en un despiste. El ultimo arreglo final y que firmo la sentencia de muerte de SW:G fue, aunqueRaph este cansado de oirlo, el New Game Enhancements que eran un remake completo del juego. Simplificándolo en exceso, eliminando las habilidades de comercio y añadiendo algo de arcade a la mezcla. A los fans no les gusto nada y las cancelaciones

Reader Comments
  1. Talaen said on

    Speaking as a current and former SWG player (Beta 1, Shuttle 1), I don’t think any flaming is deserved. The NGE was without a doubt a colossal mistake - but it wasn’t any one person’s fault and the parties involved seem to have learned from it.

    As I said over on Scott’s blog - well, I’ll cut-n-paste:

    There’s still work to be done but it’s night and day from where we were a year ago, when most of us were quitting or taking long breaks. Now the challenge in front of the dev team is to follow through on the positive momentum they’ve created. While there’s a few more of the “old-style” systems that players would really like to see come back, they also need to start seriously churning out new content. To provide an example of why, lately we’ve had something happen that hasn’t really happened since the game launched: players are leaving because of general endgame burnout. Not because some change happened that they’re upset about, but more because they “just felt like they’d done everything there was to do”. It was kind of a shocker for most of the player community to finally realize we were losing people to normal churn, the kind that hits every MMORPG, instead of just because of the latest patch or dev stupidity. That means now the team has to focus on fighting that churn if they want the game to continue though.

    Personally I think the game is almost ready for a re-launch, probably with a new blockbuster expansion. If it were me making the call I would have the team make a kick-ass expansion based on Empire Strikes Back because no Star Wars fan can really ignore that tie-in. Besides, the game doesn’t have a snow planet right now

  2. Michael W. said on

    Personally I think the game is almost ready for a re-launch, probably with a new blockbuster expansion. If it were me making the call I would have the team make a kick-ass expansion based on Empire Strikes Back because no Star Wars fan can really ignore that tie-in. Besides, the game doesn’t have a snow planet right now

    I would love to see that happen. It would make me cancel my EVE/WoW sub. Would be nice if they added a new server so that people who havent played in forever could get a fresh start.

  3. Scott said on

    I certainly hope you don’t think my posting an approving link to the article was trying to use it as “a bit of a punching bag”.

    I think the article has merit in that it is probably as dispassionate a discussion as we’re likely to get on what is easily the most wrenching design change ever done to an operating MMO, from an outsider’s view. Does it matter what designer thought it up, or what producer greenlit it? Not really, unless you’re an ex-SWG player looking for photos for your voodoo doll.

  4. Jonathon Stevens said on

    the kind that hits every MMORPG

    I disagree pretty strongly with this statement. Pre-CU, from what I saw, SWG didn’t have this issue. There was no end-game. There were no level caps (in the class sense of the term). Everyone I knew from back then who quit the game did so because of reasons that typically weren’t even because of the game and I can’t think of a single one who quit because they were just flat out bored with it.

    I knew people who had grinded out every single profession, gone to every POI, and attempted every quest. These people STILL didn’t want to quit the game. Sure, you had people burn out on the game, but not in the traditional sense of WoW/EQ/etc burnout where people ended up saying “OK. I’ve done it all.. what now?”

    I was one of the guys carrying the pitch fork and torch ready to burn anyone and everyone at the stake. I was pissed at Lucas because even though I didn’t know if it were true or not, I believed they probably put the whole damn thing in motion. I was pissed at SOE for either agreeing it was a good change, or not having the balls to say “no, we’re not gonna do it” (even if it meant sending SWG to another publisher). I was even pissed at the players who STUCK with the damn game.

    I believe the articles about the NGE are actually helping SWG, not hurting it further to be honest. I look at those articles and it reminds me of how damn much I loved that game and Raph’s original design of it. I see them trickling things in from the past and it peaks my curiosity. I’ve been pissed and hurt for a long time and a big part of me wants them to just create an SWG 2 with an IMPROVED version of the old system.

    I’ve actually started a new account on SWG and have been playing (level 15 now) for a few days. Those articles, although bashing in most senses, actually made me want to try the game again… don’t know if it’s poor etiquette (if so, i can edit or you can remove this bit) but I’m blogging about it at http://precu.wordpress.com.

    P.S. Raph, we want you at IMGDC next year!

  5. Azaroth said on

    I’d love to hear the “lesson about data-mining”, personally.

    I can’t say I know anything about the NGE, because it’s just not something I followed or was involved in. But the fact is that the very nature of these games dictates that people will revolt against any kind of large change in gameplay. Something can never be simply “good” or “bad”, because of the diverse interests of the diverse population, and the fact that the new design you implement is different from the one that the people who are already there *are there for*. Even if they see problems with it, it’s still what they’re accustomed to, so they’re ripe for dissension if you give them the slightest opportunity. Over time you’ll see a more favourable response from paying customers as dissidents churn out and newcomers who are attracted by the new design come in, but the screams in the night will always echo across the internet.

    I think that’s pretty much a universal MMO law. Unless you’re in the red, a new design is probably best fit for a new game. Or, at the very least, there’ll be big trouble and much gnashing of teeth when you try to collar people with it.

  6. tuebit said on

    From an uninvolved outsider’s perspective, the article did have some (still) good (if obvious) points.

    - Players get invested in ‘their’ game. A property management company may look at a renter as a minor entry in some subledger … but really, it’s a person living in “their” home. So too with games.

    - Release quality is critical. Don’t release until it’s ready.

    Certainly these are obvious points. Certainly they’ve been proclaimed and written many times (too many times). But from an uninvolved average player’s perspective, there hasn’t been a great deal of evidence that the “industry” gets it.

    I also find it interesting that people are still talking about NGE after all this time. It wasn’t the first game to undergo major changes that upset the existing player base (DAoC and ToA?) I think the ongoing discussion has a lot to do with the community that loved SWG.

    SWG was (until NGE) the best example of a recent graphical MMO with a definite worldy / sandboxy quality to it. The industry has yet (imo) to deliver a replacement (note: I haven’t yet tried Eve).

  7. Groovymarlin said on

    The players that left because of the NGE still feel so betrayed, hurt, insulted, and burned; they can’t let go of it yet. Maybe some of them never will. Some of them may flood this post with well-researched, detailed comments explaining why SOE/NGE/Smed/whoever/whatever is the devil. Telling them that Smed has apologized and changes have been made since then is like talking to a wall, but I completely sympathize with those players nonetheless. I see your point though, and admit I’m a little tired of it now too.

    It does pretty much suck that, even though you refused to comment, the site disingenuously pulled a past quote by you from the archives and spotlighted it in big, bold type on the graphic. But maybe that was the work of the designer or editor. Hopefully they’ll note your displeasure and at least apologize, if not take it off the page completely.

  8. Jeff said on

    Well, I look at it this way Raph. Our crew pretty much lost interest in SWG once the NGE came out, but we were already in a down-turn at the time. Our city on Chilastra is about to finally go away with the housing clean-up, and it’s really a bit sad for all of us. SWG is where we all started…well, not even the game so much as the dev boards :) Luckily our group has managed to stay alive BECAUSE of the relationships we created on the dev boards and through SWG, and if there’s still any passion and heated discussion out there I think it’s because of the love so many of us had for the original vision of that world. Hell, I still bring up Outcasting all the time ;)

    There’s still nothing like it out there and every other game we get into inevitably draws us back to discussions on how SWG did this better and did that better. We complain about the flaws too of course, but the parts that made it unique are what’s stuck with us.

  9. Michael said on

    You can’t steal someone’s stuff without them wanting it back.

  10. Cuppycake said on

    Well posted Raph. I agree with you wholeheartedly. It must be very frustrating to watch people rant so passionately without having the full story. And it must be more frustrating to not be able to share said story. Kudos for speaking out.

  11. Amber said on

    It does pretty much suck that, even though you refused to comment, the site disingenuously pulled a past quote by you from the archives…

    I don’t see any foul play here. I think Raph’s quote is much more relevant to the conversation than the completely out-of-context quote they pulled on Paul Barnett. But if you’re doing a story on SWG, and you’re talking about game design, then it’s not a complete story without a Raph quote, past or otherwise. It would have been courteous if the author let Raph know he was using the quote, but not strictly necessary.

    More on-topic, I think the reason NGE keeps resurfacing is that the community is still pretty baffled over just how a slam-dunk license like Star Wars could have gone so horribly and spectacularly wrong. That much of it can’t be talked about only serves to further speculation. Couple this with SOE’s continuing struggle to communicate with their players in any meaningful way, and it’s a subject that has no choice but to continue to bubble up time and time again.

  12. MX13 said on

    I agree, but find it hard to let go, as many do. There simply isn’t any true closure. Sure, Smed has said it was a mistake, but where’s the recognition of the pain suffered.

    Personally, I just wish he would release an apology along the lines of “SOE, and I, deeply regret the pain & perceived betrayal our implementation of the NGE has caused. Although we felt we were doing the right thing at the time, we regret the manner in which we did it, and sincerely apologize to our present & former customers. Unfortunatly, we can not bring back the former SWG, but will continue to improve the NGE in an effort to bring in new & former players.” Then we could bury this and many of us could move forward.

    Smed may have felt he’s made amends, but he needs to take a moment and consider the benefits all would gain from the clear closure of an apology. Heck, he may even get back a few subs…

    That said, until you make us a game Raph, we’ll still be standing on your lawn… :P

  13. Kent said on

    Well, I’m one of those people that was very upset with the NGE. However, I don’t hate Mr. Smedley or Freeman or any individual at SOE because of it.

    I think the article is spot on when it discussed the feeling of betrayal that the players received with the NGE. To this day I do not trust SOE. This has nothing to do with the individals mentioned but has everything to do with the company that pulled such a horrendous move. I find it very difficult to even contemplate spending time in a MMOG controlled by SOE. I just do not want to have my time spent in the game to be devalued because of some corporate decision.

    I know that SOE has claimed they have learned from their mistake. Yet I see no solution except time, as actions are louder than words. I’ll keep an eye on Vanguard and see what SOE does with it. I’ll look to see how the DC Online game launches, even though I have no interest in playing that. If SOE does a good job with them, then they will have earned back a bit of my trust.

    That is about as dispassionate as we will see about the subject.

    I am curious about your comment on data mining, though.

  14. Mael said on

    I’m thinking that the people at the Escapist just didn’t have enough fresh content for this issue. Detailing the NGE in 2006 would be a conversation with merit. Digging into it now seems more like a I need something for this space and don’t have anything good. Let’s beat on SWG again! move.

    There is so much going on in the MMO world right now - at many companies - why not dig into some of that instead of falling back on yet another NGE devilization?

  15. Ian Cooper said on

    Look, it’s not just NGE. The whole history of SWG has been a shambles, from releasing it about 6 months too early all the way through the slipshod and half-arsed player cities implementation (which I still blame for the servers seeming dead), from the first creature handler implementation through the CU and the NGE. Everything the developers implemented in the first three years of the game was done in an incredibly unprofessional manner and what should have been a sure-fire hit game was turned into a laughing stock.

    My point: ALL the developers are to blame, from the suits at LA and SOE on down to the programmers and playtesters. I don’t care if Smedley and Julio are nice guys. The point is, no one did enough to stop the rot that ruined SWG, and I just can’t forgive anyone involved for that.

  16. suske said on

    i for one think people would let the resentment over the nge die if there was
    a good deep sci-fi sandbox game out there to play however there isn’t.
    we wait and hope….

  17. Syntheticist said on

    Raph,
    I posted about this in more detail on my blog, but I wanted to say that I totally agree with your assessment of the continued beating of this dead horse, when there is nothing to be added to the discourse.

    SOE went for broke, and it didn’t work out. It happens in video game development. I understand people are upset, but this was back at the tail-end of 2005! Surely there are more important things to be concerned about?

    I can’t help but feel the Escapist were running a popular flame-piece simply for hits.

  18. Joseph said on

    I call BS on you Raph.

    The fact that this is still an issue just shows how committed the customers were to that game. I was one of them. I miss the game a lot. You of all people should understand that committed customers are something that a developer should cherish.

    I for one am glad that this happened. If and when I find another game that I like as much as I liked SWG, I will be fairly confident that it won’t change like the SWG did. Even if Sony won’t make amends, it may prevent others from making the same mistakes.

    If by data mining, you mean knowing your customers, and listening to them, then I agree, that is the biggest part of this story.

  19. Zaush said on

    I get what you are saying Raph. First you know these people and we don’t. You have worked and in some cases still work with them, broke bread and tossed back cold ones with them after work. I am sure at the end of the day Smed and company are good people who care about their families and have a passion for their work. Secondly, from a game developer and business standpoint, maybe the outcry has gone on too long. I am sure Bioware is none to amused of the constant “Is it Star Wars” MMO discussions on their forums.

    However, I know from personal experience you can’t jump into any MMO, from Entropian Universe to Runescape, without bumping into former SWG vets and hold a 20 min conversation about how great the game used to be, what professions you were and what server you played on. This is a passionate playerbase that got a taste of what a MMO could be. The greatness of open-ended sandbox gameplay where players can truly mold their avatar into a customized extensions of themselves. Sadly this game, and no other like it exsists today. Some come close, but not enough.

    Since you still speak to Smed etc, please pass this message on to him: This WILL NEVER GO AWAY until SOE and LA come together for the good of the community, offer frank and open discussions with full disclosure of the hows, whys and whens of the CU, NGE and other decisions that lead toward the end of the game we all love. And then, a full blown apology from all pertinent parties to the entire playerbase, current and former.

    Why is this necessary even though highly unlikely? Because we need closure. If classic servers are not an option and we can’t get the game back we loved, then we need some closure on this matter. As the article said, many of us viewed SWG as a second life. We had homes, jobs, friends and enemies. Some of us had amassed great wealth, others great accomplishments, but all of us found a wonderful world to which we could escape. This was all taken away abruptly and rudely with no regards to our feelings and desires.

    Raph we need closure with forthright answers and honest apologies. Until we get that we are unable to put this behind us.

    Thanks for everything you have and will do for the future of MMOs and Virtual worlds.

  20. independentcreator said on

    Like many posters above, I’m also curious about the data mining comment.

    Is it because the other mistakes are too obvious to be meaningfully learned from, or that their lessons simply can’t be learned?

  21. Kevin Belanger said on

    I just want my game back.

    That’s all I care about.

  22. Jeff in Phoenix said on

    I think you are looking at it from an emotional perspective, which is fine, you are loyal to your collegues which bolds well for the type of person you are. I think the article is point out the fact that history repeats itself and as soon as you forget and move on, history repeats itself. Hence never get into a land war in Asia.

  23. wildcat_84 said on

    I have to respectfully disagree, Raph.

    The problem is that SWG, the original was a lot more than a game to many of us who played it. There never has been any apology to us from Smed or anyone else. There never has been any effort to “make things right”. There is and will never be “closure” in this whole mess until either SWG shuts down for good, or Smed and company MAKE RIGHT on what they did, IE: give us our game back.

    Pitiful half measures like re-introducing more than a year and a half later some dumbed down versions of the skills system and even creature handler isn’t good enough.

    Until SOE and LEC do “the right thing”, the NGE will haunt them and everyone else associated with it so long as they are involved in operating MMO’s.

    Unless Smed, Torres, Freeman, etc, were just incredibly incompetent and naive, they had to know that what they were releasing on 11/15/05 was a grossly inferior product, that even measured by the stated goals for it wasn’t a good game by any measure.

    I also find it impossible to believe that the existence of the NGE wasn’t deliberately hidden from us while at the same time the TOOW expansion was being marketed AT us with features that Smed, Torres, Freeman, et all KNEW would be gone from the game less than 2 weeks after release.

    It’s also impossible to believe that it was purely coincidental that the NGE was announced literally THE DAY AFTER our credit cards were charged for the expansion.

    This was all done deliberately. It was NOT done in the “best interests” of the existing player base, it was done to jettison us for what was perceived as a larger, SIMPLER player base that they’d make more money off of, oh, and while we were on our way out the door, they’d pocket some extra cash off us by charging us for an expansion that lost tons of content that it had been advertised with 2 weeks after release.

    I know that you know those people much better than I do. But my experience with them is solely my experience with Star Wars Galaxies, and twice being burned by the CU and the NGE. How can someone like me possibly give them the benefit of the doubt and consider them to be “good people”?

    I already “turned the other cheek” once in accepting the CU only to have the other one violently clawed away by the NGE 5 months later.

    If you ask me, they got what they deserved. Smed owes his job to the fact that the REST of Sony is doing so poorly that upper management hasn’t sacked him yet. Julio Torres went from LEC producer of SWG to a footnote on a single player game. Helios is chained to a lesser role in the SOE DC comics game, a game already pretty much doomed to be DOA before even opening.

    Karma, as an old SWG guildie of mine (who won’t touch the game again with a 100 meter pole) can be a real bitch sometimes.

    I think the results of the NGE speak for themselves. Look at the STILL passionate former players who still keep this in the forefront of MMO press even long after the fact. Look at the fact that most of the (tiny) remnant of the SWG player base STILL asks for Pre-CU back on the official forums every day. And most importantly, look at that cliff dive of subscribers, from over 250,000 a couple months prior to NGE to 49,000 today.

    (source: mmogdata.com)

    You know, the NGE hurt the whole MMO industry as well. With the NGE, and SPE/LEC’s sociopathic treatment of an online community large enough to make a decent sized American city, no player will EVER again be as trusting of MMO devs as they were before it.

  24. wildcat_84 said on

    An addendum (forgot to include this).

    As an IT Manager for one of the largest companies in the USA doing what we do, with branch offices all over the Eastern USA, I’m in a position to influence decision making. I can’t tell you how much pleasure it has given me to deprive Sony of every sale I could. One in particular was $50,000 worth of plasma screens and other equipment for a video conferencing project.

    Specs go to me for review. Sony crossed off the acceptable brands on the spec. Plasma screens bought from Philips.

    That was one month after the NGE and a direct consequence of it. I’m sure others do what I do.

    Don’t piss off the geeks. We weild a LOT more power than you think :)

    I seriously doubt SOE ever has another successful MMO launched. Ever. They simply have too bad a reputation. The NGE will haunt them forever.

  25. Yivvits said on

    I… I only wish Ben were here.

  26. Antheus said on

    I believe that NGE will teach one valuable lesson to all MMO publishers: Keep customers at a distance.

    Bad business decisions get made every day. But that is all they are. And I do not believe any company will want to run a risk of such vocal fallout again.

    Gamers simply want a fun game to play. And Blizzard’s hands-off policy in customer relations seems to have done them a lot of good. No ammount of explanation, blogs or public statements, summits and other PR stunts helps.

    I do believe that this will be the lesson learned, not the effects of changing a game, since those are well known and documented already.

  27. BadMisterFrosty said on

    The situation with the NGE is triple bizarre to me.

    1) SWG is far, far away from Star Wars and ever was. Its the most bizarre version one can ever imagine. Significant lack of content, art and so forth but plenty of necklaces(!) and stuff like that. It even has a newsboy hat on the item list. The developers even seriously considered “gardening” as a future publish. Let’s call that pink design, derived from the pink skyboxes on many planets (worsed.art-direction.ever.)In effect, many players played it because they liked some of the innovation, but mostly because its the only Star Wars MMO (at least in theory).

    2) The special design of SWG attracted a niche community which is of course very passionate. The game offered unique social gameplay and especially l33tness-on-demand with the Jedi, which lured plenty of players into the game (replacing the disappointed Star Wars Fans from the earlier community).

    3) All sorts of managemend faults, resulted in a game that hardly made any progress. Half-assed revamp followed by another half-assed revamp, while they catered foremost jedi players. Despite a classic trilogy setting, all sorts of exotic, external or prequel-movie stuff was put into the game, watering down what was left from classic star wars. So the earlier community often talked about the “potential” of the game. Which means, the “special community” grows stronger and gains more influence in the boards, the *only* ones who actually love this Star-Wars-Travesty.

    The NGE changed especially the gameplay of this “special” community, removing the l33tness by offering Jedi to everyone (and removing FOTM-Templates etc). A lot of complains came due to the fact that existing gameplay was exchanged with something unpolished and bug-infested. While it addressed some logical and game mechanical flaws, it left other major inconsistencies untouched (so that players outside of the die-hard-SWG community remained sceptical).

    In essence, a bizarre game tried to hurt those, who were the only ones who actually like its weirdness. I embraced the NGE when I read of it first as I hoped the developers would finally do the obvious (Star Wars Galaxies = Star Wars!?), which turned out to be a halfhearted, unconsidered attempt.

    It will remain a mystery, what exactly prevents SWG developers from making something classically star wars. ;)

  28. Groovymarlin said on

    Don’t piss off the geeks. We weild a LOT more power than you think

    You know, it’s scary but TRUE. I think people really underestimate geek buying power, not just on the consumer side but in the corporate world, as you gave a great example of. People who don’t “get” MMOs would probably look at that and think it’s insane that you let your anger about a change to a game affect such a large purchasing decision, but there it is.

    Of course one might argue that the divisions of Sony that make plasma screens and MMOs are practically two different companies, they’re so far apart. I still find it fascinating though, and would love to see someone do a survey on ripple effects like this.

  29. Allen Varney said on

    I wrote the Escapist article “Blowing Up Galaxies” and provided the pull quotes used in the layouts. If my use of Raph’s words irritated him, that wasn’t my intent and I’m sorry for that irritation, but otherwise I see no reason to apologize. Raph’s words were and are here on his own blog; he hadn’t pulled them; I quoted him, and the others, accurately and in context. That’s not “disingenuous.” Raph, if you don’t want your past statements quoted, remove them.

    As for data mining being the “true lesson” of the NGE — well, it might have been nice if Raph had mentioned that when I showed him the article before publication.

  30. Azaroth said on

    Oh no you di-int!

  31. Kerri Knight said on

    the story is going to stay unavailable because of confidentiality agreements.

    Quite frankly, that right there is probably 90% of why the problem isn’t going away. In lieu of the facts, rumors will do for most.

    How do you fight ignorance? The truth is a good start. Nobody can stop the masses that come to string you up, who will refuse to change their mind in the face of full disclosure and honesty, even admitting where you went wrong. Trying to fight that attitude with silence only leads to their voices being the only ones present. You’ll never get an open, constructive dialogue by refusing any reasonable efforts to do so because of what unreasonable people ‘might do’.

    Without any opportunity to engage in a discussion of where things went bad, how it happened, and most importantly how to make sure it doesn’t happen again, those who feel victimized don’t have anyplace constructive to turn their energies. All we have is postulated rumors, snippets of information, corporate-speak cryptic remarks, and the like. There is no platform for real discussion on this issue publicly, so I’m not exactly shocked that the only discussion that does take place is emotional, negative, and very jaded. I think the reason for that, at least in part, is that you can resonate with others who either experienced it too, or are sympathetic (or at least empathetic) to your experience. Trying to engage in a constructive dialogue on the matter is like talking to the wind, either you get the people who want a witch-hunt on one side or absolute silence on the either.

    I think the concept I’m looking for here is ‘validated’. The best companies I have worked for in my life have stated policies that the very first thing you do with an angry customer is validate their concerns. If you bristle up, refuse to communicate, or tell them their situation isn’t important to you, the conflict grows into a battle of wills and egos. The percieved wrongdoing, how to avoid it in the future, to learn lessons, incorporate them into your operations, to grow and improve….all that gets left behind. Validating the customer, with the exception of those who are displaying immature irateness or are seeking discounts for inane issues (you don’t have Jergen’s lotion in your bathroom, I want free movie tickets!…and yes, I’ve had those exact words said to me), immediately disarms most people. Even those who ‘want a fight’, or are just waiting to be ‘kicked in the teeth’ when presented with an opportunity to move from disonance to resolution, will do so. In a lot of cases, you’ve not only addressed and resolved, but you’ve gone way over their (admittedly very low) expectations and impressed them enough to go tell their friends. There’s the old business adage ‘9 out of 10 dissatisfied customers tell 7 out of 10 of their friends about you; 1 out of 10 satisfied customers will tell 3 out of 10 of their friends about you…’ so you see, bad word of mouth kills you quick, building a reputation takes work, but the final bit ‘…every customer who has a bad experience that is addressed fully, fairly, and recieves the highest level of attention and care will tell someone about it’ is the most important. Everyone knows mistakes get made, but if they hear about a company that admits when it is wrong and has employees willing to make selfless efforts to make it up to you, that speaks volumes.

    Plus there’s the occasional confused look on a person’s face when you say ‘you’re right’, its priceless :9.

    Confidentiality agreements are for protecting against rival companies and provide legal means to punish people who might try to sell your interests out. They should not be used as a blanket defense against customers who want to understand how such a series of events got put into motion. Your customers have invested in your product, they have a right to know why it blew up in their face.

    Car company X produces vehicles which randomly catch fire/explode/flip over/etc. When questioned on how such a product made it to market, putting customers’ lives in danger, the company would rather not comment. Okay, nobody died from the NGE, fair enough, but my illustration was made to question just how far does confidentiality go.

    Can you blame someone for being upset that the expansion released not weeks prior to the change featured very desireable rewards for professions that were entirely removed from gameplay? Is anyone suprised that theories of unlawful business practices would get floated when something like that happens? If nothing illegal or unlawful was intended, if it was a gigantic mistake, why remain silent on it?

    Those who fail to study history are doomed to repeat it. Hard to study when all the facts are behind locked doors.

    Basically, unless someone’s ego is at stake, I don’t see any intelligible reason to play the ’stick my fingers in my ears until they forget about it’ game.

    I will say I’ve seen one place where halfway constructive discussions on SWG takes place, and thats on the Firefly MMO forums. However, those mostly consist of ‘How can we make something that fun, immersive, and with the same kind of possiblities again?’. That’s great and I encourage it, but a lot of us just remain weary of the industry as a whole right now because we’ve seen so little discussion on how to keep it from happening again.

    As far as the ‘data mining’ bit, I hope that isn’t aluding to the astromech stats on professions played/mastered. I think the oldest justification for disregarding others’ preferences is to devalue/dehumanize them as ‘unworthy of consideration’. The 2% of customers in that demographic that went ignored had the same enjoyment in what they did as the other 98%, and paid the same amount of money to do so. A business that starts believing itself big enough to ignore its customers wishes, even one, is a business that needs an attitude check or is going to fail, very publicly.

    In summary, my opinion is: We can’t stop talking about, because technically…we haven’t even started.

  32. Raph said on
    #3, Scott, no I’m not mad at you. :)

    #29, Allen, like I said, I don’t think you had any intent to just fan flames, and I don’t think you did anything wrong by using that quote (even if it irritates me) — as you said, it’s out there and can’t be taken back. You can’t really remove anything on the Internet. :)

    I didn’t go into the data mining thing because a) there’s confidentiality stuff there, and b) like I said in the first place, I’m just tired of NGE articles, for the reasons above.

    As for the rest of it, I think the gap between, say, BadMisterFrosty and Zaush or wildcat_84 sort of sums up why I am burned out on the whole discussion. :)

  33. Shayde said on

    I won’t post anything more than what others have posted, and I respect you Raph…

    But saying the nge was an error, and actually saying they were sorry they screwed over their players are two different things.

    If I screwed around on my wife and told her it was an “error”, well, you can paint the picture.

    They’ve never done anything to make this up to the players they turned away. They have never even given us the “sorry, my bad” wave you give someone when you cut them off in traffic.

    They’ve done nothing to apologise. NOTHING.

  34. MEP said on

    We had a bit of a debate on RLMMO about how this intense hatred has lead to personal attacks on fellow members who don’t up the Sony Hate ante’. My view is that we are now beating a dead horse. We are that first date who can’t do anything all night but talk about the ex. It truly has become unhealthy. It was however productive, even if it is no longer so. Mistakes were made and laws were broken. LA, SOE and those involved have received a fitting reputation and the companies lost revenue.

    The real reason the dead horse won’t stop getting itself beaten is the lack of closure. As Raph stated, the public simply doesn’t know the whole story. We are left to speculate about the whos and whats without ever truly knowing. It’s the cover up that prompts all to put on their tinfoil hats and continue the discussions.

    My feeling is the best way to achieve closure is for a book to be written about this scandal. I am not directing this to Raph or anyone in particular, just putting this out there. The book can provide closure in two ways - first it allows all to know what truly happened. Second, it allows justice to be done, although not the type of justice people confuse with revenge. It would allow some good to come from a wrong; some lessons to be learned so future wrongs are not repeated.

    The book should be more academic in nature, more like a textbook of what not to do. It can start off from the point of an overly ambitious game design that did not fit the budget at hand, to an early and incomplete release, lack of development tools that cause many a missed deadline, through the first failed revamp and the release of Gordon Walton. The NGE would need special attention, as Raph stated there were many lessons to be learned that the public simply don’t focus on, like a chapter on Data Mining, When Focus Groups are Wrong. Just because a great newbie space station was built and people enjoy it, doesn’t mean that translates well, if at all, to the whole of the game. The expansion that was release just before the NGE should be another focal point. It’s marketing, timing and why complaints to the FTC had to be filled before a refund was given are great topics for people getting an MBA. Planning is key, or more to the point, having a plan is key.

    I can see why such information will never be out there. The confidentiality agreements are in place to protect people’s careers as much as to not give fodder to lawsuits. However if the individuals involved can show a track record of advoidance of such mistakes I can’t help but to feel their careers will be benefited by such a book.

    I feel that is what is truly needed here, disclosure and justice, though most would settle for a revamped and fully fixed version of preCU. Then all of this negativity will simply go away. This dead horse beating may be productive after all, to some degree, though most have moved on. For the rest something more is needed.

  35. wildcat_84 said on

    My feeling can be summed up as such:

    Smed, nor anyone else involved, has EVER posted a DIRECT, TO THE SWG PLAYERS apology of any sort.

    The words, “We at SOE apologize to the SWG players for the NGE, which was a mistake, we never should have done it” have never come from Smed, nor have any of the admissions that the NGE was a mistake have been made in the SWG forums nor the website, they’ve all come elsewhere.

    Therefore, there hasn’t been any apology. None at all.

    Until there is an apology, and more importantly, concrete ACTION to prove the sincereness of the apology (pre NGE servers at the very least), I’ve not even been ASKED for forgiveness, how can I give it?

    How can any of the rest of us?

    Taking a tiny dev team and slowly trying to bolt Delorean looking parts (pre NGE) onto the NGE Yugo isn’t any sort of apology either, it’s at best placation. They are trying to sort of emu Pre-CU inside NGE, which is a pathetic at best, doomed at worst effort, especially when the emu, flawed as their Dev teams are, are at least expending their efforts on what the community actually wants instead of faking it.

    At the very least they should offer a REAL apology.

    Until they do, as I said, the NGE is going to dog every one of them and every project they engage in. And justifiably slow. One way or another they will pay the price, because there IS a price to be paid, there is a consequence to actions, especially when done in public to hundreds of thousands of non consenting victims.

    Either they eat some public crow, and do what they don’t want to do (pre NGE), or else they pay a price that is 100 times worse, and keep the scarlet letters of NGE tattooed to their foreheads forever.

  36. Dirk Pfeiffer said on

    I agree with Raph on being tired of hearing of the NGE, but I also agree with the posters of “it will always haunt them”.

    If Smed and all the other guys are such good people and they *admit* the NGE was such a big mistake…..
    ….why is there still no Pre-CU server back online? Not even a single one?
    Just to show they listen to their community as they pretend they do.
    Shouldn’t be so hard to do!
    And would probably give them back some reputation as well.

  37. Yivvits said on

    Oh come on Raph, you don’t wish Ben were here? You know, Old Ben, that crazy old wizard who lives out beyond the dune sea? :)

    (See, I’m making a statement that I’m burnt out on the NGE debate as well.)

  38. PastorVor said on

    I think it’s as simple as already expressed…

    Without knowing how/why it happened there is no way to know whether it will happen again.

    PC’s are a huge investment. We all know that our PC’s can be taken away or nerfed or otherwise ruined at anytime but we expect our PC’s to be there as they were the day before.
    If a game is constantly changing the rules or can otherwise not be trusted then that’s a game that will not get many serious players.

    Anyway, that’s how I see the issue. I just want to know how/why it happened so I can make sure it doesn’t happen again in any new game I have become passionate about.

  39. Kent said on

    Very well said, Kerri Knight! I completely agree.

  40. Zaush said on

    Quite honestly Raph, I think we are all burned out, most of us would like nothing more than to move past this and go forward. But as stated by myself and many others, we need some sort of closure.

    The sad thing is, had they just open classic servers in the first place, all of this animosity and frustration would have been avoided. Had SOE/LA come out and said “SWG is currently bleeding subscriptions, we are unable to keep up with the demands of our customers, and we feel we can do better by make some major changes to the core game.” Then offered classic servers and developed a working fully tested “NGE”, I think most of us would have understood.

    There are some very intelligent, business savvy people among us that can appreciate the position that SWG may have been in at the time. Although disappointed that SWG would see no more development attention, at least we still would have had the game we wanted, and possibly could have helped promote the new game and express ideas to aide the development.

    One of the major mistakes that SOE/LA made was not leaveraging the expertise and brilliants of its own playerbase.

  41. Zaush said on

    I could not disagree more BadMisterFrosty on points 1 and 2 of you post. As a die hard Star Wars fan from ‘77 when I was 9, the dream of living in a “real” living breathing Star Wars galaxy was exactly the type of game I was looking for. It was a brilliant concept to make a game that went “behind the scenes” of the the original trilogy and allowed both a look and hands on experience to how the Star Wars universe ticked. And you were an active participant. Was it Niche? Absolutely, but that was the beauty of it in my opinion. It was a well needed change for the “same old same old” movie based games that have plagued the Star Wars IP for more than 2 decades.

    On point 3 I agree 100%. And this is where I think the blame falls squarely at the feet of LA. Marketing started to drive development and things that had no place in the game and boarderline canon breaking made into the game where clearly they did not belong.

  42. Just a bystander said on

    To Raph:

    Tired of discussing or reading about it but make a blog about it anyway?

    *boggle*

    Okie dokie…………………….

    Anyway….

    It’s worth talking about today and tomorrow because it keeps the mistakes made in the forefront of the minds of arrogant developers. Yes, you’re all arrogant, and all have a God complex. You guys can bristle at that notion and say “I’m not arrogant and I certainly don’t have a God complex”, but the rockstar mentality of being worshipped by hundreds of thousands of nerds (including myself) generally causes ones head to expand. You all believe YOU’RE right and all the players are wrong, and YOUR design document that you’ve been working on since your MUD / DnD days is the one holy grail of design documents.

    There are important lessons to be taught, retaught, learned, and relearned from SWG (all versions of it: PRECU, CU, NGE, Current) for developers. And it’s a good thing to have the most collasal failure of all MMOs to brought back to the forefront as a testament of what NOT to do; how not to run a game; how NOT to treat your players with arrogant indignation.

    The history of it is fascinating, it’s hard to argue that point. It’s been a trainwreck from the beginning, and it’s been awfully hard not to watch.

    To anyone else still wanting an apology:

    First, you won’t get it (See point about arrogance).

    Second, what good would it do? Would you suddenly forgive SOE for stomping a hole in your heart? Would you go running back to the girlfriend that has abused, lied, and cheated to you multiple times over the last couple of years? Would you suddenly re-up and start playing again - to be the player who posts rather than posters who play (another shining gold star in the SOE cap)? An apology would do nothing but give you MORE ammunition to use against SOE and the people associated with it from beginning to end in more forum fodder and blog posts (SEE!!!! I WAS RIGHT!!!111!!!!ONE!!!! U WERE RONG!!!!).

    But anyway. There are still lessons that need to be learned and relearned from it. If there was no such thing as the Star Wars mystique and it was just…Blasters and Laser Swords Online…noone would care. It would have likely never have made it past month 6. But it WAS/IS Star Wars - THE single most recognizable IP in the WORLD. There should be NO competition for a Star Wars MMO. None. Anybody and everybody has heard of Star Wars.

    And SOE, and you, blew it.

  43. Dr. Reality Check said on

    I know this isn’t exactly polite… but are you SWG people out of your freaking minds??? It’s a game, get over it! You voted with your dollars… get on with your life.

    Seriously, it just stuns me that an online game could have people get their panties all tied up in a knot well over a year after this NGE.

    There are trees outside, and this magical golden thing called the ’sun’ that is warm… and girls… yeah soft and fun to play with girls

    Get a life!

  44. Joseph said on

    Dr. Reality Check

    Your perceptions of the (former) player base of SWG was a part of the problem. Your sterotypical view of basement dwelling, cheetos eating, jolt cola swilling, pocket protector wearing nerds playing a video game may apply to some. But most of the people that I have met through this game were and are establish adult professionals, with families and a LIFE. Many, like me, used SWG as an escape from the everyday so that we could relive our youth and our fastasy of being in the glaxay that Lucas created.

    I believe your view was similar to those that made the decision to implement the NGE. They failed to realize that we are savy consumers in the connected age and we flexed and continue to flex our muscle and influence. We will continue to do so because we were wronged. I don’t care if you do not appreciate that we were wronged in a pretend world, but we were wronged nonetheless. And if you think “get over it” will placate the cabal, you are sorely mistaken.

  45. Vortex500 said on

    44 years ago in Dallas a President was assassinated, a event that still got rumours floating about the shooters and people to this day talking about different conspiration theories. Would it be same if they had catched the killer(s) and got a confession and a trial? If people would have gotten some sort of a closure? Who knows…all I know is that SWG needs one…

    A closure and explanation would be nice, for all players that invested their love,time and money into the game, only to get the ice cold silence when they wonder why someone would annihilate the great community that was built up by them.

    SWG was never a game to many of us, it was a thriving living world. I found my place in this world, I made tons of friends and I had a great time playing it. After the “upgrades” I lost all contact but a few of them, and Im still to this day wondering how the “lost ones” are doing.

    Maybe its all about the clash between the naive average player Joe (that is thinking of the importance of community,friendship and immersion into the vr world) and the flat cold corporation (that is thinking of the importance of budget,cashflows and profit)and in the middle we got the Devs trying to please both sides. Neither one side understanding the other one. Neither one side sees what the other one sees. Neither one side feels what the other ones feels.

    Examples: Buildning a player city from scratch with friends and succeed vs. freak out about low subscription numbers, Making friends on a 20 man squill hunt outside Anchorhead vs. worrie about the yearly budget, Sit and watch the sunset on Tatooine in a scout camp with ranger friends vs. developing the NGE to attract new players($$$) in wild panic. A creature handler tame a cool new animal the day before the NGE and /flex in happiness vs. “Tomorrow we are down to 9 managable professions that will make our job so much easier.”. Its like two diffrent realities and they are as far from each other they could be. No wonder they clash together loudly when suddenly they have to meet. Different expectations, different views and diffrent goals, diffrent minds.

    Someone brought armageddon to our SWG world…The CU was like a 1906 San Francisco earthquake to the world we lived in. The NGE was like a suddenly nuclear holocaust. No wonders why we still wondering what the H*** happened and want some answers och explanations.

    Well some of my thoughts and take it for just that, thoughts, not facts…( and yes I had 2 beers before writing it and been awake for over 24h. I love life, I really do) :)

    Take care all

    The Second Day Vet

  46. wildcat_84 said on

    SWG wasn’t a game. It was a pastime.

    Is baseball still the most popular sport?

    Nope, football’s TV ratings are higher.

    However, baseball draws more fans per season (the longest season of any sport with the most games) than any other sport.

    Football teams with pack in 70,000 fans a game… For 16 games. Baseball teams will pack in 25,000 fans a game… For 162 games…

    Baseball is a far more complex game than football. It requires lots of specialized skills. It sometimes is slow. It sometimes resembles a chess match more than a contact sport. To master the act of hitting a baseball is probably the most difficult feat in all of sport, to the tune that someone who fails to do it 70% of the time is a Hall of Famer. It’s the only sport where the DEFENSE holds the ball. It’s the most balanced sport, in that both teams have the same number of chances to go on offense.

    What if one day, to compete with football’s ratings, baseball changed the game drastically overnight, removing long loved roles and replacing gameplay with “fast action basebally and iconic” rules. Such as there being only one strike, so that an at bat is resolved within a couple pitches. Or in replacing the ball with a beach ball so that it’s way easier to hit?

    The focus group, after all, said that people wanted to see more hits and more action.

    Who cares if that 25,000 fans per ballpark, per game, 162 times a year the day after the “New Game Experience” is released falls to 2,000, they will soon be drawing 70,000 a game and higher TV ratings than ever, right?

  47. Dr. Reality Check said on

    When I was a kid I was a huge Cubs fan. I watched a lot of baseball, played a lot of baseball, and even went to Wrigley Field for more than one game. Then in 1981 the league went on strike. I was angry, dissapointed, and sad for a few weeks that summer with no baseball to play.

    Then I moved on to other things, like playing with the other kids in the neighborhood, and pumping quarters into arcade machines. By the time the strike ended, I no longer felt the need to watch every Cubs game on TV. In fact, I never looked back and even now, 26 years later, I feel no compulsion to watch baseball, or even care who’s in the race. Or if Hell is freezing over for the Cubs this season.

    That’s my point. You move on. The NGE was a year and a half ago. If you are adults, and professionals, isn’t it time to go find something else? Is it really that self satisfying to run around on any message board or blog where you can complain about how SOE screwed you? I loved Star Wars as a kid. Dreamed that someday I’d be able to pilot an X-Wing… and then the ‘first’ trilogy came out and kicked some of my childhood memories in the teeth.

    I survived.

    Why can’t you?

  48. wildcat_84 said on

    I’m a Reds fan. I got screwed more than anyone in 1981, since my team had the best record in all of baseball, yet didn’t make the playoffs :)

    But your analogy falls because in 1982, when the game resumed with a non strike season, there were still 9 players on the field, the pitcher’s mound was still 60′ 6″ from the plate, there were 3 strikes, 3 outs, 9 innings, etc etc etc. Anyone who loved baseball who didn’t come back after 1981 or the more disastrous 1994 strike DO need to get a life. Because their game and pastime STILL exist.

    That is NOT the case with SWG.

    The NGE is to Pre-NGE what kickball is to Major League Baseball. It’s vaguely similar but not at all the same game.

  49. Vortex500 said on

    (Sorry for the slight offtopic Raph)

    Hey Wildcat_84.

    Futuramas Blernsball is your “fast action basebally” with iconic rules. I love the rules.

  50. Mike Rozak said on

    I think the NGE has become one of those undead memes, like permadeath, open PvP, and class vs. skills. It’ll keep popping its head above ground every year or so.

  51. Ola Fosheim Grøstad said on

    I just didn’t want to perpetuate the discussion.

    Which is why you wrote a long blog entry and linked the article…

    SWG/NGE will perpetuate itself whenever Sony make game-breaking changes in future games. I can see why players want to educated future designers with short to-the-point articles like the one linked.

    THIS is your player-democracy at work, Raph.

  52. Tinman_au said on

    I’d like to present two comments that Raph him self has made, partly to address Dr. Reality Checks “get a life” comment, but mostly to show why so many will always be disgruntled about the NGE (And because Raph says it so well).

    “It’s a SERVICE. Not a game. It’s a WORLD. Not a game. It’s a COMMUNITY. Not a game. Anyone who says, ‘it’s just a game’ is missing the point.”

    “Everyone knows that the game is about other people, right? That’s often presented as the Great Secret, the Holy Grail of Online Knowledge.

    Well, it’s wrong. In part, anyway. The fact is that other people are something fairly cheap. The trick is other people that your people care about. Other people in the same place as your people. Other people who aren’t going to leave.”.

    IMHO LA/SOE’s biggest mistake was thinking they could turn a Star Wars world/sim into a “game” and that no one would leave. Pets, professions…most of what made SWG “serious” about Star Wars *poof* gone over night. They totally misread their customers and the community, but worse, they effectively said “We don’t care if you the community like SWG how it is, we’re changing it anyway”.

    Arrogance is why everyone left SWG and that, to me, is the real lesson companies should learn here.

  53. Wolfe said on

    The lesson is important for the coming generations of online games. You chose how to deploy your game and there is no known way to get a second chance. This is really knowledge that the designers need to relay to investors, and today there are lots of inexperienced designers working in this industry.

  54. BadMisterFrosty said on

    Well, I think developers are still in a pretty confortable position, compared to say people in the SWG community forums. You know, the boards are part of the orbit, so you can’t escape it there. Part of its stickiness is that discussion and meta-discussion frequently switch sides. So, you’ve tried to distance yourself by putting some more metas between the issue and you.

    Interestingly enough, it has drawn a piece of meta-discussion in many discussions, as posting issues are no longer something naive and for fun. The somewhat “hidden” intention of posting at all has moved to the foreground, say like “50,000 subsribers” can be seen as a statement like “look, what the NGE has done” other than “Its an interesting figure”.

    Anyways, what makes the discussion of the NGE itself futile to me is that you can never beat people’s best-of memories they created from a long and checkered time period.

  55. Dirk Pfeiffer said on

    @ Just a bystander:
    You might be right with devs having a “god-complex”, but I don’t think the devs decide what makes it into the game in the end…

    @Dr. Reality Check:
    As I said on the swg forums back in the days:

    “It’s not just a game, it’s a world to live in!

    I think the reason everyone is bringing up the NGE every once in a while is because they (including me) feel betrayed. We worked our butts off to achieve what we did ingame and suddenly everything was changed.
    We had/made friends ingame and had a community ripped apart from one day to another.

    An example of how deep the fear of this happening again is sitting is my former swg guild:

    We all went to play Vanguard. On the day SOE announced they took over Vanguard all of them (about 20 people) cancelled their accounts and left the game. Only my brother and me stayed in the game and we are thinking to leave as well.

    We just don’t want to take the risk of investing another 2.5 years in a game that completely changes into something totally different.

  56. marilyn jones said on

    Wow RAph you are really wise person defending the ones who killed your brain child just wow.

  57. MX13 said on

    There are actually two seperate debates here IMHO:

    The Implementation of the NGE

    The NGE Vs Pre-NGE gameplay

    The latter is, and always will be, a valid discussion. However, the former is truely where the vast majority of the anger comes from, and is the root of discussions such as this. Because the former is not addressed, it will continue to remain attached to the latter.

    A majority of the “hate” could be addressed if Smed would truely apologize for the former.

    There can never be closure on the the feelings we all have for the game we lost, but there can be closure on the implementation of the NGE itself. Having that closure would allow many to put that hate behind them, and would benefit not only the “SWG Vet” community as a whole, but SOE as well.

    I find it hard to believe Smed doesn’t see this, but if he doesn’t, someone should enlighten him. Until there is an apology, this horse will continue to rot in front of us all, including you Raph, no matter how tired we are of the same-old rehashed arguments…

  58. That Chip Guy said on

    I know it doesn’t take much out of a person to post a rant on the Internet, but still — that someone can draw a parallel between JFK’s assassination and the NGE demonstrates a massive lack of perspective.

    This passionate hatred of an event almost two years ago is unhealthy. NGE-haters don’t need to forgive, but they sure need to heal. And they need to find that healing within themselves because there’s nothing that SOE/LucasArts could ever do that would erase the NGE.

    It’s called acceptance.

    (sigh)

    I wish Ben were here.

  59. Trucegore said on

    Alot of people miss the game. For allot of people, because of the IP, it was there first game. it think it may have introduced more new MMO players than wow did….

    We all know how people feel about there first MMO and time spent in it.

  60. Dotswarlock said on

    Unfortunately this topic is not so much about what really happened but mostly about basic human nature. Prior to the NGE there were differences in views but the player base (although complaining like in every game) was alongside the game developers when it came to core of most things. The NGE on many levels was a breach of trust – real or imagined - on an unprecedented scale in that kind of relationship.

    From that point on it transformed into a war of ideology between part of the player base and SOE and like all wars people thought and still think that they are right to promote their side. Whether it’s a war with guns or a war with words, few ever embark with the concept that they are the bad guys.

    So overall I am sorry that you are caught in this war Raph and I fear that it will not end. If it’s any consolation then you should know that personally I find this blog to be very insightful in many different topics and that it humanizes you a lot. I’m definitely not condoning what is happening but I would not expect it to end if I were you. Humans have yet to learn to let go :(

  61. Jonathon Stevens said on

    I don’t understand why people think that an apology, even a complete “we totally screwed you guys and we’re sorry” would have really any impact on the issue? S