<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: TOSes in trouble?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.raphkoster.com/2007/05/31/toses-in-trouble/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2007/05/31/toses-in-trouble/</link>
	<description>Raph Koster&apos;s personal website: MMOs, gaming, writing, art, music, books</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jul 2008 00:30:45 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6</generator>
		<item>
		<title>By: Second Life Court Ruling Could Limit TOS’ Power : Metaverse Network</title>
		<link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2007/05/31/toses-in-trouble/#comment-125883</link>
		<dc:creator>Second Life Court Ruling Could Limit TOS’ Power : Metaverse Network</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jul 2007 23:29:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/2007/05/31/toses-in-trouble/#comment-125883</guid>
		<description>[...] Station Exchange? This is a case to watch going forward. See additional discussion at ValleyWag, Raph Koster and The [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Station Exchange? This is a case to watch going forward. See additional discussion at ValleyWag, Raph Koster and The [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: The Crossroads of Zebuxoruk and Xegony :: View topic - Bragg vs. linden enterprises</title>
		<link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2007/05/31/toses-in-trouble/#comment-125188</link>
		<dc:creator>The Crossroads of Zebuxoruk and Xegony :: View topic - Bragg vs. linden enterprises</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jul 2007 14:25:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/2007/05/31/toses-in-trouble/#comment-125188</guid>
		<description>&lt;!--%kramer-ref-pre%--&gt;[...] sued. Judge ruled that the TOS unfairly favored Linden for arbitration and dispute resolution.   A blog of the origional suit_________________~ Life is temporary - Science is forever ~ Mr. Wizard   www.werena.com - it's [...]&lt;!--%kramer-ref-post%--&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://dev.wp-plugins.org/wiki/Kramer"><img src="http://www.raphkoster.com/wp-content/plugins/kramer.php?kramer=gif-icon" class="technorati-balloon" alt="Kramer auto Pingback" style="border:0;" /></a>[...] sued. Judge ruled that the TOS unfairly favored Linden for arbitration and dispute resolution.   A blog of the origional suit_________________~ Life is temporary - Science is forever ~ Mr. Wizard   <a href="http://www.werena.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.werena.com</a> - it&#8217;s [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: &#34;Terms Of Service&#34; Clauses In Trouble? - Hellgate Guru Forums</title>
		<link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2007/05/31/toses-in-trouble/#comment-123539</link>
		<dc:creator>&#34;Terms Of Service&#34; Clauses In Trouble? - Hellgate Guru Forums</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Jun 2007 19:23:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/2007/05/31/toses-in-trouble/#comment-123539</guid>
		<description>&lt;!--%kramer-ref-pre%--&gt;[...] on this case says that games' terms of service (TOS) clauses are largely meaningless.  Reaction: http://www.raphkoster.com/2007/05/31/toses-in-trouble/   [...]&lt;!--%kramer-ref-post%--&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://dev.wp-plugins.org/wiki/Kramer"><img src="http://www.raphkoster.com/wp-content/plugins/kramer.php?kramer=gif-icon" class="technorati-balloon" alt="Kramer auto Pingback" style="border:0;" /></a>[...] on this case says that games&#8217; terms of service (TOS) clauses are largely meaningless.  Reaction: <a href="http://www.raphkoster.com/2007/05/31/toses-in-trouble/" rel="nofollow">http://www.raphkoster.com/2007/05/31/toses-in-trouble/</a>   [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Massive Update: Weekly MMO News news from 1UP.com</title>
		<link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2007/05/31/toses-in-trouble/#comment-123523</link>
		<dc:creator>Massive Update: Weekly MMO News news from 1UP.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Jun 2007 00:39:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/2007/05/31/toses-in-trouble/#comment-123523</guid>
		<description>&lt;!--%kramer-ref-pre%--&gt;[...] taken a major twist this week as a Pennsylvania court judge is essentially saying, in court, that Linden Labs' terms of service agreement is meaningless. You see, Bragg has included Linden Labs CEO Philip Rosedale in the suit. Linden moved to get [...]&lt;!--%kramer-ref-post%--&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://dev.wp-plugins.org/wiki/Kramer"><img src="http://www.raphkoster.com/wp-content/plugins/kramer.php?kramer=gif-icon" class="technorati-balloon" alt="Kramer auto Pingback" style="border:0;" /></a>[...] taken a major twist this week as a Pennsylvania court judge is essentially saying, in court, that Linden Labs&#8217; terms of service agreement is meaningless. You see, Bragg has included Linden Labs CEO Philip Rosedale in the suit. Linden moved to get [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Kurt Hunt</title>
		<link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2007/05/31/toses-in-trouble/#comment-123472</link>
		<dc:creator>Kurt Hunt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jun 2007 02:58:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/2007/05/31/toses-in-trouble/#comment-123472</guid>
		<description>First, I want to clarify one part of the order. chambless is exactly right. One of the things the court focuses on is that Linden/Rosedale seemingly made representations that users own the virtual land they buy. The issue isn't that they claimed users can make money, as you describe, but that they claimed "what you have in Second Life is real and it is yours." Incidentally, the court's framing of this issue could wind up being very instructive because they almost seem to be taking virtual property ownership for granted.

Second, and related to that last point, I was surprised not to see more about the virtual property discussions in this order. The court is pretty transparently confused about the differences between copyright rights and virtual property rights -- it even goes so far as to say Linden recognized property rights in virtual land, when in fact the ToS do exactly the opposite.

I wrote more about this on &lt;a href="http://krhunt.blogspot.com/2007/06/bragg-v-linden-lab-and-confusion.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;my blog&lt;/a&gt;. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First, I want to clarify one part of the order. chambless is exactly right. One of the things the court focuses on is that Linden/Rosedale seemingly made representations that users own the virtual land they buy. The issue isn&#8217;t that they claimed users can make money, as you describe, but that they claimed &#8220;what you have in Second Life is real and it is yours.&#8221; Incidentally, the court&#8217;s framing of this issue could wind up being very instructive because they almost seem to be taking virtual property ownership for granted.</p>
<p>Second, and related to that last point, I was surprised not to see more about the virtual property discussions in this order. The court is pretty transparently confused about the differences between copyright rights and virtual property rights &#8212; it even goes so far as to say Linden recognized property rights in virtual land, when in fact the ToS do exactly the opposite.</p>
<p>I wrote more about this on <a href="http://krhunt.blogspot.com/2007/06/bragg-v-linden-lab-and-confusion.html" rel="nofollow">my blog</a>. I&#8217;d be interested to hear your thoughts.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Prokofy Neva</title>
		<link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2007/05/31/toses-in-trouble/#comment-123420</link>
		<dc:creator>Prokofy Neva</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Jun 2007 08:56:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/2007/05/31/toses-in-trouble/#comment-123420</guid>
		<description>Regardless of Csven's nitpicking here on any technical meaning of the word "software flaw" or by implication use of the word "hack" or "exploit," what Bragg did was indeed *exploit* (or "hack" in an ordinary sense) the system by pasting a URL that forced an auction to go up for $1 instead of $1000 when it hadn't been set yet by a Linden. The loophole was quickly closed. Bragg had knowledge of the norms of the auction, which was that sim auctions were always opened at $1000. He took the lot number from inworld, plugged it into a URL, and illicitly cranked up the auction. It's like buying electronics in Radio Shack by taking the price off a $1.00 thing and putting it on the $1000 thing and going through the cashier -- but then getting caught at the door. LL then took all his possessions even legally gained when it could reasonably only take the stolen sim. That's the essence of the case. The case also tries to knock down the distinction between the marketing techniques calling the server space "land" you can "own" and the fine print in the TOS saying it is essentially fictional and can be taken you "for any reason or no reason".

I love it that the TOS is declared "unconscionable" and that these games/worlds all got a little bit less oppressive and put on notice with that ruling.

I'm not loving it that a bad case might lead to a good law (never happens) -- because it means that thugs who steal and fence hot sims and harass a virtual world company in court get to wrest something back from them that they only have due to that virtual world company. It means that virtual world companies, like OB/GYNs, will become hugely aware of malpractice suits and become more cautious and expensive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regardless of Csven&#8217;s nitpicking here on any technical meaning of the word &#8220;software flaw&#8221; or by implication use of the word &#8220;hack&#8221; or &#8220;exploit,&#8221; what Bragg did was indeed *exploit* (or &#8220;hack&#8221; in an ordinary sense) the system by pasting a URL that forced an auction to go up for $1 instead of $1000 when it hadn&#8217;t been set yet by a Linden. The loophole was quickly closed. Bragg had knowledge of the norms of the auction, which was that sim auctions were always opened at $1000. He took the lot number from inworld, plugged it into a URL, and illicitly cranked up the auction. It&#8217;s like buying electronics in Radio Shack by taking the price off a $1.00 thing and putting it on the $1000 thing and going through the cashier &#8212; but then getting caught at the door. LL then took all his possessions even legally gained when it could reasonably only take the stolen sim. That&#8217;s the essence of the case. The case also tries to knock down the distinction between the marketing techniques calling the server space &#8220;land&#8221; you can &#8220;own&#8221; and the fine print in the TOS saying it is essentially fictional and can be taken you &#8220;for any reason or no reason&#8221;.</p>
<p>I love it that the TOS is declared &#8220;unconscionable&#8221; and that these games/worlds all got a little bit less oppressive and put on notice with that ruling.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not loving it that a bad case might lead to a good law (never happens) &#8212; because it means that thugs who steal and fence hot sims and harass a virtual world company in court get to wrest something back from them that they only have due to that virtual world company. It means that virtual world companies, like OB/GYNs, will become hugely aware of malpractice suits and become more cautious and expensive.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Virtual Property, Real consequences - Lusternia Forums</title>
		<link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2007/05/31/toses-in-trouble/#comment-123247</link>
		<dc:creator>Virtual Property, Real consequences - Lusternia Forums</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Jun 2007 22:27:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/2007/05/31/toses-in-trouble/#comment-123247</guid>
		<description>&lt;!--%kramer-ref-pre%--&gt;[...] IRE younglings) and Ralph Koster&#39;s blogshttp://forge.ironrealms.com/2007/05/31/bragg-vs-linden/http://www.raphkoster.com/2007/05/31/toses-in-trouble/   -------------------- QUOTE(The Aethercity of Deepnight): Arix says, &#34;At some point, Richter [...]&lt;!--%kramer-ref-post%--&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://dev.wp-plugins.org/wiki/Kramer"><img src="http://www.raphkoster.com/wp-content/plugins/kramer.php?kramer=gif-icon" class="technorati-balloon" alt="Kramer auto Pingback" style="border:0;" /></a>[...] IRE younglings) and Ralph Koster&#39;s blogshttp://forge.ironrealms.com/2007/05/31/bragg-vs-linden/http://www.raphkoster.com/2007/05/31/toses-in-trouble/   &#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8211; QUOTE(The Aethercity of Deepnight): Arix says, &quot;At some point, Richter [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Makarov</title>
		<link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2007/05/31/toses-in-trouble/#comment-123217</link>
		<dc:creator>Makarov</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Jun 2007 00:09:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/2007/05/31/toses-in-trouble/#comment-123217</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;What it boils down to, though, is that the court is saying that some pretty common elements of TOS agreements may be considered unfair by law&lt;/blockquote&gt;

There are many contracts, not just software TOS and EULA, where one party decides to put in terms that are well known to be prohibited under law. In almost all cases, employers, landlords, you name it, choose language specifically so that it encourages the other party not to sue them.  Almost every lease I signed before I bought my first home had provisions that were illegal based on my state's landlord-tenant law.  Lawyers aren't idiots.  They will, however, try to get away with stuff, hoping the terms never get reviewed by a judge.

It's apparent to me that if Linden really wanted to use arbitration to settle disputes, their attorneys would have worded the provisions to be in compliance with California and federal law.  

What's pleasurable about this decision is that some smart VW operators might go back and revisit their own EULA and TOS, in attempt to make them worth something.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>What it boils down to, though, is that the court is saying that some pretty common elements of TOS agreements may be considered unfair by law</p></blockquote>
<p>There are many contracts, not just software TOS and EULA, where one party decides to put in terms that are well known to be prohibited under law. In almost all cases, employers, landlords, you name it, choose language specifically so that it encourages the other party not to sue them.  Almost every lease I signed before I bought my first home had provisions that were illegal based on my state&#8217;s landlord-tenant law.  Lawyers aren&#8217;t idiots.  They will, however, try to get away with stuff, hoping the terms never get reviewed by a judge.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s apparent to me that if Linden really wanted to use arbitration to settle disputes, their attorneys would have worded the provisions to be in compliance with California and federal law.  </p>
<p>What&#8217;s pleasurable about this decision is that some smart VW operators might go back and revisit their own EULA and TOS, in attempt to make them worth something.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Shayde</title>
		<link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2007/05/31/toses-in-trouble/#comment-123160</link>
		<dc:creator>Shayde</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Jun 2007 19:36:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/2007/05/31/toses-in-trouble/#comment-123160</guid>
		<description>Software companies have been putting more and more in TOS's that they had to be advised by their lawyers were shady at best. 

You can't sign away essential rights. 

Now I know the companies have a lot to protect on their side, but many have became too overzealous. The industry really needs to examine what is legally fair before they err on the side of the almighty dollar, or they'll get burned in the end.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Software companies have been putting more and more in TOS&#8217;s that they had to be advised by their lawyers were shady at best. </p>
<p>You can&#8217;t sign away essential rights. </p>
<p>Now I know the companies have a lot to protect on their side, but many have became too overzealous. The industry really needs to examine what is legally fair before they err on the side of the almighty dollar, or they&#8217;ll get burned in the end.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: chambless</title>
		<link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2007/05/31/toses-in-trouble/#comment-123156</link>
		<dc:creator>chambless</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Jun 2007 18:21:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/2007/05/31/toses-in-trouble/#comment-123156</guid>
		<description>Troon, let's be fair now, the lawyer plaintiff disputes Linden Lab's version of events on how his account was terminated (and I've heard the get a real life joke so many times by now already, it hurts).

But ya know...now that I think about it, maybe Linden Labs really did mean OWN. But like: Hahaha you really believe what we said? Lawl! BAN! 0WN3D!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Troon, let&#8217;s be fair now, the lawyer plaintiff disputes Linden Lab&#8217;s version of events on how his account was terminated (and I&#8217;ve heard the get a real life joke so many times by now already, it hurts).</p>
<p>But ya know&#8230;now that I think about it, maybe Linden Labs really did mean OWN. But like: Hahaha you really believe what we said? Lawl! BAN! 0WN3D!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
