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> <channel><title>Comments on: Finding women developers is hard</title> <atom:link href="http://www.raphkoster.com/2007/01/04/finding-women-developers-is-hard/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" /><link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2007/01/04/finding-women-developers-is-hard/</link> <description>Raph Koster&#039;s personal website: MMOs, gaming, writing, art, music, books</description> <lastBuildDate>Sun, 12 Feb 2012 06:02:55 +0000</lastBuildDate> <sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod> <sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency> <generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1</generator> <item><title>By: Morgan Ramsay</title><link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2007/01/04/finding-women-developers-is-hard/comment-page-1/#comment-97718</link> <dc:creator>Morgan Ramsay</dc:creator> <pubDate>Sun, 07 Jan 2007 22:52:30 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/2007/01/04/finding-women-developers-is-hard/#comment-97718</guid> <description>Kressilac wrote:
&lt;blockquote&gt;... but unfortunately setting that as a HR goal is pretty thin ice to tread on.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Nevermind that EEO-1 requires employers with 100 or more employees to collect information on race, sex, and national origin&#8212;bona fide occupational qualification (BFOQ) permits employers to use religion, age, sex, or national origin in employment practices when necessary to normal operations. Gender BFOQ exceptions are frequently raised in the entertainment business, and age BFOQ exceptions are frequently raised in the transportation business. This entails the question, &quot;Is diversity a business necessity?&quot;
&lt;blockquote&gt;... if there’s a hint she’s going to abandon the project for 6 to 12 weeks on pregnancy leave.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Men can actually take pregnancy leave, too.
&lt;blockquote&gt;... starting a family is easy to overcome and doesn’t factor at all into the hiring decision.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Applicants with families are more desirable in organizations that are concerned with employee retention.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kressilac wrote:</p><blockquote><p>&#8230; but unfortunately setting that as a HR goal is pretty thin ice to tread on.</p></blockquote><p>Nevermind that EEO-1 requires employers with 100 or more employees to collect information on race, sex, and national origin&mdash;bona fide occupational qualification (BFOQ) permits employers to use religion, age, sex, or national origin in employment practices when necessary to normal operations. Gender BFOQ exceptions are frequently raised in the entertainment business, and age BFOQ exceptions are frequently raised in the transportation business. This entails the question, &#8220;Is diversity a business necessity?&#8221;</p><blockquote><p>&#8230; if there’s a hint she’s going to abandon the project for 6 to 12 weeks on pregnancy leave.</p></blockquote><p>Men can actually take pregnancy leave, too.</p><blockquote><p>&#8230; starting a family is easy to overcome and doesn’t factor at all into the hiring decision.</p></blockquote><p>Applicants with families are more desirable in organizations that are concerned with employee retention.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Kartones</title><link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2007/01/04/finding-women-developers-is-hard/comment-page-1/#comment-97610</link> <dc:creator>Kartones</dc:creator> <pubDate>Sun, 07 Jan 2007 11:24:00 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/2007/01/04/finding-women-developers-is-hard/#comment-97610</guid> <description>Well, In my company we&#039;re 27 people, and 4 of them are women (3 developers and the secretary).
So yes, may not be the same &quot;volume&quot; of women developers... but definetly there are. And most of my university friends that last (being friends I mean) are women too (I studied computers) :D</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, In my company we&#8217;re 27 people, and 4 of them are women (3 developers and the secretary).</p><p>So yes, may not be the same &#8220;volume&#8221; of women developers&#8230; but definetly there are. And most of my university friends that last (being friends I mean) are women too (I studied computers) <img
src='http://www.raphkoster.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif' alt=':D' class='wp-smiley' /></p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Kressilac</title><link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2007/01/04/finding-women-developers-is-hard/comment-page-1/#comment-97435</link> <dc:creator>Kressilac</dc:creator> <pubDate>Sun, 07 Jan 2007 01:28:44 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/2007/01/04/finding-women-developers-is-hard/#comment-97435</guid> <description>Raph,
Please don&#039;t get me wrong.  Women in the workplace is only a good thing for all the reasons you mentioned.  A diverse workgroup is very desirable, especially for a MMO because of its more social elements.  All men designing a game makes a MMO very goal oriented.  The more women you have on the team, the more centered your game play should be. At least that&#039;s my outlook on it and we all know that MMOs that have a good balance of the 4 player types tend to fare well.  I see women on the team as a pretty critical element but unfortunately setting that as a HR goal is pretty thin ice to tread on.
As for how to solve the problem I have no idea.  I&#039;ve been looking for the answer for a while now.  It&#039;s extremely difficult to make a change in policy or selection criteria such that the employee search outcome indirectly favors women candidates without resorting to gross stereotypes that do more harm than good. In the end, I&#039;ve pretty much given up on the idea because I believe there simply are not enough candidates in the marketplace.  I use recruiting firms and take employees from what I am fed.  The liability is no longer on my company because I outsourced the hiring process and when my company gets larger than 20 employees I&#039;ll readdress the outsourced hiring process.  If I&#039;m only fed male resumes then so be it and I don&#039;t think much more of it.  In reality, I&#039;m given a fair number of female resumes but the ratio still majorly favors males.
Now, the question I pose for you is that in a startup environment where investors are holding you to a deadline so they can get a return on investment is it ok to ask a 20 - 30 year old female candidate if they have plans to start a family?  The law says no but how is it fair to you, the one responsible for making the return on investment happen,  to lose 6 - 12 weeks of work from an early hire employee (read key to the success of the project or anyone you&#039;re hiring in these early months) due to pregnancy leave.  If your investors require you to get something out the door and half your staff is 20 somethting females then you&#039;re pretty much guaranteed to lose 3 - 6 months of man hours over the course of a 18 - 24 month project.  Just as I don&#039;t like to hire simply because the candidate is a female, I find it very difficult to hire if there&#039;s a hint she&#039;s going to abandon the project for 6 to 12 weeks on pregnancy leave.  In a more established company with a stable revenue stream, starting a family is easy to overcome and doesn&#039;t factor at all into the hiring decision.  Is it different for a startup?  Part of me says yes while the other part says no.  You can only lessen the risk by violating another EO law based on age.  Hire women only over the age of 35 or 40 though that solution sucks as well and is patently not fair to the 20 - 30 year old women out there.  Look back to the start of the WNBA.  Three of the top five stars the league was betting on to help lauch the league didn&#039;t start the first half of the season because they got pregnant.  The league never recovered.
While I think women on the team is a fantastic goal and an undeniably great asset to the team and game design, there&#039;s some real world issues that come up when you focus hiring practices on them and/or set goals for diversity.  Those issues are only compounded by the tight schedule of a startup company and the need to get profitable as quickly as possible.  I&#039;m betting that scenarios like the one I painted above are the reason why companies under 20 employees do not have to meet EO guidelines.  EO could place unnecessary risk on the launch of a fledgling company.  Then again EO might get you a better game...  Startups are so much fun are they not?</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Raph,</p><p>Please don&#8217;t get me wrong.  Women in the workplace is only a good thing for all the reasons you mentioned.  A diverse workgroup is very desirable, especially for a MMO because of its more social elements.  All men designing a game makes a MMO very goal oriented.  The more women you have on the team, the more centered your game play should be. At least that&#8217;s my outlook on it and we all know that MMOs that have a good balance of the 4 player types tend to fare well.  I see women on the team as a pretty critical element but unfortunately setting that as a HR goal is pretty thin ice to tread on.</p><p>As for how to solve the problem I have no idea.  I&#8217;ve been looking for the answer for a while now.  It&#8217;s extremely difficult to make a change in policy or selection criteria such that the employee search outcome indirectly favors women candidates without resorting to gross stereotypes that do more harm than good. In the end, I&#8217;ve pretty much given up on the idea because I believe there simply are not enough candidates in the marketplace.  I use recruiting firms and take employees from what I am fed.  The liability is no longer on my company because I outsourced the hiring process and when my company gets larger than 20 employees I&#8217;ll readdress the outsourced hiring process.  If I&#8217;m only fed male resumes then so be it and I don&#8217;t think much more of it.  In reality, I&#8217;m given a fair number of female resumes but the ratio still majorly favors males.</p><p>Now, the question I pose for you is that in a startup environment where investors are holding you to a deadline so they can get a return on investment is it ok to ask a 20 &#8211; 30 year old female candidate if they have plans to start a family?  The law says no but how is it fair to you, the one responsible for making the return on investment happen,  to lose 6 &#8211; 12 weeks of work from an early hire employee (read key to the success of the project or anyone you&#8217;re hiring in these early months) due to pregnancy leave.  If your investors require you to get something out the door and half your staff is 20 somethting females then you&#8217;re pretty much guaranteed to lose 3 &#8211; 6 months of man hours over the course of a 18 &#8211; 24 month project.  Just as I don&#8217;t like to hire simply because the candidate is a female, I find it very difficult to hire if there&#8217;s a hint she&#8217;s going to abandon the project for 6 to 12 weeks on pregnancy leave.  In a more established company with a stable revenue stream, starting a family is easy to overcome and doesn&#8217;t factor at all into the hiring decision.  Is it different for a startup?  Part of me says yes while the other part says no.  You can only lessen the risk by violating another EO law based on age.  Hire women only over the age of 35 or 40 though that solution sucks as well and is patently not fair to the 20 &#8211; 30 year old women out there.  Look back to the start of the WNBA.  Three of the top five stars the league was betting on to help lauch the league didn&#8217;t start the first half of the season because they got pregnant.  The league never recovered.</p><p>While I think women on the team is a fantastic goal and an undeniably great asset to the team and game design, there&#8217;s some real world issues that come up when you focus hiring practices on them and/or set goals for diversity.  Those issues are only compounded by the tight schedule of a startup company and the need to get profitable as quickly as possible.  I&#8217;m betting that scenarios like the one I painted above are the reason why companies under 20 employees do not have to meet EO guidelines.  EO could place unnecessary risk on the launch of a fledgling company.  Then again EO might get you a better game&#8230;  Startups are so much fun are they not?</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Nathan Forget</title><link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2007/01/04/finding-women-developers-is-hard/comment-page-1/#comment-97306</link> <dc:creator>Nathan Forget</dc:creator> <pubDate>Sat, 06 Jan 2007 15:48:38 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/2007/01/04/finding-women-developers-is-hard/#comment-97306</guid> <description>I think the point about women in academic game development programs may not be correct. I attend FIEA (http://fiea.ucf.edu/) and we have only two females in our class of thirty-four. However, academia may be a place to start tackling the problem. It&#039;s easy to imagine how more women can be persuaded to enter this kind of academic program.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the point about women in academic game development programs may not be correct. I attend FIEA (<a
href="http://fiea.ucf.edu/" rel="nofollow">http://fiea.ucf.edu/</a>) and we have only two females in our class of thirty-four. However, academia may be a place to start tackling the problem. It&#8217;s easy to imagine how more women can be persuaded to enter this kind of academic program.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Timbre of Tempests</title><link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2007/01/04/finding-women-developers-is-hard/comment-page-1/#comment-97229</link> <dc:creator>Timbre of Tempests</dc:creator> <pubDate>Sat, 06 Jan 2007 13:36:24 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/2007/01/04/finding-women-developers-is-hard/#comment-97229</guid> <description>&lt;!--%kramer-ref-pre%--&gt;[...] 5th January, 2007. 11:59 am. http://www.raphkoster.com/2007/01/04/finding-women-developers-is-hard/*snickers something about grapevine deployment* [...]&lt;!--%kramer-ref-post%--&gt;</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<div
style="padding:15px; border-left:1px solid #dedede; border-bottom:3px solid #CCEBF7; background-color:#fcfeff"><p>[...] 5th January, 2007. 11:59 am. <a
href="http://www.raphkoster.com/2007/01/04/finding-women-developers-is-hard/*snickers" rel="nofollow">http://www.raphkoster.com/2007/01/04/finding-women-developers-is-hard/*snickers</a> something about grapevine deployment* [...]</p></div> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Morgan Ramsay</title><link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2007/01/04/finding-women-developers-is-hard/comment-page-1/#comment-97055</link> <dc:creator>Morgan Ramsay</dc:creator> <pubDate>Sat, 06 Jan 2007 09:37:26 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/2007/01/04/finding-women-developers-is-hard/#comment-97055</guid> <description>Not &lt;em&gt;intending&lt;/em&gt;, Raph? Where&#039;s your commitment to quality of life, huh? ;)</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not <em>intending</em>, Raph? Where&#8217;s your commitment to quality of life, huh? <img
src='http://www.raphkoster.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /></p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Raph</title><link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2007/01/04/finding-women-developers-is-hard/comment-page-1/#comment-96984</link> <dc:creator>Raph</dc:creator> <pubDate>Sat, 06 Jan 2007 07:41:05 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/2007/01/04/finding-women-developers-is-hard/#comment-96984</guid> <description>Oh, and Sarah -- most of the folks hired so far have families, myself included. We&#039;re not intending to be a crazy-crunch sort of place.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, and Sarah &#8212; most of the folks hired so far have families, myself included. We&#8217;re not intending to be a crazy-crunch sort of place.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Raph</title><link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2007/01/04/finding-women-developers-is-hard/comment-page-1/#comment-96983</link> <dc:creator>Raph</dc:creator> <pubDate>Sat, 06 Jan 2007 07:40:01 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/2007/01/04/finding-women-developers-is-hard/#comment-96983</guid> <description>Kressilac, we&#039;re very familiar with those rules, we&#039;ve been doing this a while. :) In the end, we have to hire based on who is the best candidate, because that&#039;s what&#039;s right for the project and the company. But at the same time, making the effort to get the jobs listed where they&#039;ll get seen by a diverse group of possible candidates seems worthwhile.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kressilac, we&#8217;re very familiar with those rules, we&#8217;ve been doing this a while. <img
src='http://www.raphkoster.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> In the end, we have to hire based on who is the best candidate, because that&#8217;s what&#8217;s right for the project and the company. But at the same time, making the effort to get the jobs listed where they&#8217;ll get seen by a diverse group of possible candidates seems worthwhile.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Kressilac</title><link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2007/01/04/finding-women-developers-is-hard/comment-page-1/#comment-96965</link> <dc:creator>Kressilac</dc:creator> <pubDate>Sat, 06 Jan 2007 07:15:51 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/2007/01/04/finding-women-developers-is-hard/#comment-96965</guid> <description>Careful that you don&#039;t make hiring decisions based on gender.  It&#039;s a protected EO category.  If a male caught wind of you hiring a female over him primarily because she was female, it could lead to a lawsuit just as easily as the other way around.  Even more so because intent is easy to prove with this blog post.
I&#039;ve spent a good portion of my career in IT recruiting and it&#039;s always difficult to find women programmers.  That doesn&#039;t change regardless of your industry.  I guess all I am saying is that when you do hire a female programmer, be sure you&#039;re hiring her because she can do the job and that gender plays next to no role in the decision.  Run amok of EO laws and life becomes hell.  There are no EO restrictions until you have over 20 people in your office.  There are discrimination restrictions though.  Last thing you need for your startup is a lawsuit from some guy who feels being male was what caused him to get passed up in the interview.  Believe it or not gender discrimination works both ways regardless of what the media wants us to believe.  (i.e. men can&#039;t possibly be victims ever.)</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Careful that you don&#8217;t make hiring decisions based on gender.  It&#8217;s a protected EO category.  If a male caught wind of you hiring a female over him primarily because she was female, it could lead to a lawsuit just as easily as the other way around.  Even more so because intent is easy to prove with this blog post.</p><p>I&#8217;ve spent a good portion of my career in IT recruiting and it&#8217;s always difficult to find women programmers.  That doesn&#8217;t change regardless of your industry.  I guess all I am saying is that when you do hire a female programmer, be sure you&#8217;re hiring her because she can do the job and that gender plays next to no role in the decision.  Run amok of EO laws and life becomes hell.  There are no EO restrictions until you have over 20 people in your office.  There are discrimination restrictions though.  Last thing you need for your startup is a lawsuit from some guy who feels being male was what caused him to get passed up in the interview.  Believe it or not gender discrimination works both ways regardless of what the media wants us to believe.  (i.e. men can&#8217;t possibly be victims ever.)</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Sarah</title><link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2007/01/04/finding-women-developers-is-hard/comment-page-1/#comment-96656</link> <dc:creator>Sarah</dc:creator> <pubDate>Fri, 05 Jan 2007 23:56:03 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/2007/01/04/finding-women-developers-is-hard/#comment-96656</guid> <description>One point I&#039;m surprised no one has brought up has become stereotype, but is based on trends.  (Warning, wild generalizations follow.  Please don&#039;t attack me.)
In general, women care more about quality of life issues because, in general, they tend to be the caretakers in their families.  Also in general, startups tend to be less stable than larger companies with established practices.  If you can convince people that your company will be stable and family-friendly, I think you will be on the right track.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One point I&#8217;m surprised no one has brought up has become stereotype, but is based on trends.  (Warning, wild generalizations follow.  Please don&#8217;t attack me.)</p><p>In general, women care more about quality of life issues because, in general, they tend to be the caretakers in their families.  Also in general, startups tend to be less stable than larger companies with established practices.  If you can convince people that your company will be stable and family-friendly, I think you will be on the right track.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> </channel> </rss>
