Raph’s Website » Mihaly interviews Bartle

Mihaly interviews Bartle

September 22nd, 2006 (Visited 2653 times) Tags: legendmud, matt mihaly, muds, richard bartle, WoW

A Chat with Richard Bartle. Among other things, it discussed the possibility of WoW having an “honorouable retirement” system.

Progenitor says, “OK, well at the moment the top level is 60. I’d like for it to keep accumulating points until you got enough for level 61.”

Progenitor says, “At that point, it would ask you if you wanted to retire with honour. if you said yes, you’d go on the high score list and that would be that, you could come back to chat and stuff but no more achievement-oriented play.”

Progenitor says, “If you said no, you’d carry on as you were.”

You say, “Interesting idea. Have you seen it implemented anywhere?”

Progenitor says, “That would be one way to do it. it’s just a means to allow players to stay indefinitely without feeling the frustration of continual raid.”

Progenitor says, “Not like that, no, but the early MUDs had something similar. even dikus had relevelling.”

On LegendMUD, we had a system whereby people who reached a certain level above the max level could in fact honorably retire. The admins would create a new NPC with that player’s signature characteristics (their warcries, custom clothing, cool fighting tactics, and so on) and said NPC would be placed in a special zone called “The Hall of Legends.” Getting in there was a serious accolade and achievement; some characters were turned down because they weren’t significant enough in the history of the mud.

That’s not the only thing in the interview, of course — it’s pretty wide-ranging. Worth a read.

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Kev R. said on September 22nd, 2006 at 3:52 pm:

So basically you would pay your $15 month to either sit and chat, or regrind another character? Sorry, but I really don’t see the benefit….

The endgame play for me has always been the social aspect that only achieving tasks with a group/guild can do. I’m not talking about continual raiding of the same tired dungeons to help that rogue get his last +agi bracer for the set; I mean stuff like helping the noobs of Mos Eisley kill a few krayts with my jedi, clearing an asteroid field in EVE with my hauler taking away the corp’s ore, etc.

The suggestion of the “hall of fame” will only encourage players to think on a single player basis, just as the rest of the game is designed. I can’t think of one single team-based achievement in WOW; everything is based around requiring a group, but to get a solo reward (armour, weapons etc). And once your set is complete, off to the battlegrounds to get your single player name on the high score board. Next will be grinding PVP for hours, as many do now, but only to reach 61 and retire.

Persistant world rewards, which benefit entire groups of players is the way forward. Planetary control, system control, fluid politics dynamics etc. SWG had this acorn seed of an idea a few years back, but as we all know the execution of the plan left a lot to be desired.

Raph said on September 22nd, 2006 at 3:57 pm:

Actually, that’s what you do now, isn’t it?

The suggestion of the “hall of fame” will only encourage players to think on a single player basis

The folks who tended to make it into HoL on Legend tended to be folks who had strongly distinct roleplay or personas. That and famed pkillers, since people could actually fight the HoL NPCs and try to beat them.

Matt Mihaly said on September 22nd, 2006 at 4:18 pm:

We did that for awhile in our text MUDs in the sense of immortalizing important characters in an official chronology of the world’s history, but found that as we got bigger (and that’s a pretty darn relative term considering our small size), it became really hard to satisfy people, since being included was such a sought-after honor and everyone was convinced that such-and-such person shouldn’t have been included or that it’s a world-shaking crime that such-and-such person (usually the same person complaining) wasn’t included. In the end, we dropped it reluctantly, which I always felt was a big shame.

–matt

Kev R. said on September 22nd, 2006 at 4:48 pm:

To be honest, no Though having seen how some people play their MMO games, I can understand why so many feel that this is the only style of gameplay that the “gamer” wants…

I have always been a rare breed in MMOs, and perhaps even online FPS; the guy who wants the team to do well rather than just the player. All my “grind” characters have been for the benefit of my guild or team; I’m the guy with the power stacked template on SWG, the guy with the tanking druid on WOW, the guy with the 11k volume hauler on EVE, the guy with the medic class on BF2!

I came to realise after playing a Bounty Hunter on SWG (my first proper MMO) that the parts of the game I enjoyed the most were helping out my guild…so I dumped the single player style Bounty Hunter straight away!

Admittedly I’m probably an exception to the rule, especially as the “multiple single players” game of WOW is so popular

Kev R. said on September 22nd, 2006 at 4:52 pm:

Sorry, it’s late here and my brain is playing tricks on me; I never finished my post :S

The point I was trying to make was that I have never grinded for it’s own sake, it’s always been with the group aim in mind. grinding just for the sake of fulfilling a solo goal has never ocuured in my mind. So the concept that people play with the goal of “owning the server” has always seemed anathema to me.

Trucegore said on September 22nd, 2006 at 6:01 pm:

That would be sweet, and give you some content that grows.

Just having the player being an simple NPC in the world when they retire would be sweet.

Not a fan of the “The Hall of Legends.” idea, i would like to see them in the game world.

magicback (frank) said on September 23rd, 2006 at 5:08 am:

The whole idea is to give players options. This particular option happens to be one of the step in the Hero’s Journey model.

However, the option has to be worthwhile for both the developer and the player. Like Matt said, if it is just a flag of honor, then everyone will want it and envy ensues.

Having a good design is obviously a key success factor.

Frank

Michael W. said on September 24th, 2006 at 5:20 pm:

Well no, not exactly. I think Bartel’s whole “All raiding is is coordination” is a bit of an oversimplification. That’s like saying all that society is coordination.

What endgame in WoW involves is socialization, planning and executing raid strategy, using problem solving skills with your faction mates and guild mates to keep negative drama to a minimum, gathering consumables(I think every MMO needs some kind of farming, its just a matter of making it fun), fullfulling you class role, and general progression in instances. Not that this is all glamorous or has a lot of depth but they are legitimate game mechanics.

I think the whole notion of “retirement system” is well…kind of unnecessary. If someone thinks this systems seems like a good one, maybe WoW is not the game for them. Since WoW involves quite a bit of raiding, if the player does not find that appealing, WoW has the only alternative of rerolling and releveling.

There is no signifigant crafting, economic, or poltical system in WoW. If that is what players are looking for they should probably look at EVE.

BTW, I am not happy playing WoW, but there truly is no alternative, and I mean this in the nicest way to EVE. EVE’s travel system alone drives so many players away. Watching the screen for 3 hours worried if your going to see red piliots on your overlay is tedious.

And a perma-gear death found in EVE often “stings to much” not that I advocate a non-penalty (like WoW), but there are better alternatives than “Lets destroy all your stuff!”

I think if we are going to harp on WoW, we should also pay Eve and games like it the same respect. Virtual worlds with crafting, economic, and poltical systems carry their own issues, issues(lack of polish, unresponsive, poor customer support, tedious crafting, weak political systems, less-than-exciting combat, players unable to find any focus) that make WoW seem appealing to social gamers like myself.

Rik said on September 24th, 2006 at 6:51 pm:

I think Bartel’s whole “All raiding is is coordination” is a bit of an oversimplification.

Sure, it’s an oversimplification. It’s still true. A raid in WoW is about getting 39 other people to show up on time, with the virtual items you want them to have, and kill the monsters in the way that you have allready deterimined is the best way to kill them. In the very early stages some of the people running the raid might have some input on how to defeat a new creature. If it’s not all coordination, ask yourself why no one tries pick up groups in these area?

Allen Sligar said on September 25th, 2006 at 9:34 am:

As to MMO versions of Retirement
On a tangent-

I assume this retirement mechanic was what “Blue Glowy” status was origionally meant to encompass in SWG for the pre-pub 9 Jedi?

It actually was a decent concept, I think most of the power gamers (who tended to be the first unlocks) on the whole accepted the 3 death/permadeath concept with saber TEF (which would have culled or rather formed a bottleneck (assuming player bounties)for the population of Alpha class Jedi) and Blue Glowy after three deaths as a Master Jedi would have been really the culmination of a player Jedi’s career. This actually goes to much of the threads topic, meaning Blue Glowy would have been the “ultimate” prize for Jedi (a hall of legends of sorts) and for those elite player Bounty Hunters (not the bottom feeders killing the weak Jedi)
who got the killing blow? perhaps thier own BH Hall of Fame. The potential for this system was really rich for hardcore poawer gamers and RP’ers, which is why the game resonated so well with its community. For all the faults people cite with SWG not having follow through, conceptually it had a ton of potential, this was likely the one that mattered most of all to the core combat crowd.

I remember the Jedi correspondant at the time compiled a great list of all the associated benifits of Blue Glowy status (like providing group bonuses to skills when in the area etc.) on the Jedi Forums for the Live Team.

I cant recall any other newer MMO having a retirement system. I think much of it is premised on “what is there to do in retirement” and as a player IMO it would have to be substantially differentiated from being unretired, and it should be a very significant reward for the player concerned.

The issue with WOW is player differentiation, they have given up the ability for a player to differentiate themselves except through “grinding” first through levels, then “grinding” by progressing through increasingly difficult encounters. Yes, in a sense WOW provides some rewards for this but Tier 2 gear looks the same for everyone. I cant imagine they’d suddenly provide some “elite” reward of retirement that wasnt accessable to everyone equally. Again undifferentiated game play in an MMO is boring and unrewarding for experianced players, unless the point is to appeal to lowest common denominator game play….good for reach, bad for retention in the long term.

Rik-
“A raid in WoW is about getting 39 other people to show up on time”
True

“with the virtual items you want them to have”
True but also: with the skill sets (talents) to fill required roles

“and kill the monsters in the way that you have allready deterimined is the best way to kill them”
True

“In the very early stages some of the people running the raid might have some input on how to defeat a new creature”
Not True: A hardcore raiding guild will either share its raiding strat with another guild via public or private boards, once the strat is optimized its just mindless scripted encounters pointing and clicky by rote and role. Your 150th time running MC or BWL is the same as your 15th, 35th, 78th, and 110th. Engaging game play? Hardly.

“If it’s not all coordination, ask yourself why no one tries pick up groups in these area?”
Not True: You can get PUG’s as long as the group members meet the requirments noted above and are willing to have thier loot drops ninja’d in the end (which is the real reason no one does PUG’s) this btw is why there are a prevalence of guild memberships in end game and not required as much before 60, guilds form a social constraint (mostly) on players ninjaing? loot. A bottleneck for progression surely but a garunteed one….

StGabe said on September 25th, 2006 at 11:16 am:

Yet again the sort of thing that works in a small closeknit online game and would fail completely in anything with too many users.

Let’s say you have some way in which “retiring” is actually considered an honor by the playerbase. Ok, everyone does it. Now when you retire your name just gets tacked onto a list of 1,000+ characters (and in the process losing access to that name if they then want to create another character to actually PLAY with).

Let’s say you screen for truly “notable” characters. Suddenly you have huge management overhead not to mention that you invite lots of squabbling among your players. You create a system that no one is ever really happy with and, worst of all, you just significantly increased your CS/GM budget.

And basically, retirement as offered only takes away options from a player. They exist, as they did before, and they can’t do stuff that otherwise they could do. All to have their name put on a list with 1,000 other people, most of whom nobody’s even heard of?

Something that a lot of ROM muds did that I think scales better is implement “remort” systems. Basically what those entail is that you hit maximum level and then you “remort” into a brand new character. You essentially restart or “reroll” the entire character and go down to level 1, possibly choosing new races/classes/etc. Usually, to give the player a reason to actually do this, the game would grant the character some additional options on their remort. A standard was to have “remort-only” races. Another way to do it is to allow a slight bonus or small ability to be granted to the character when they remort and to then allow these bonuses/abilities to accrue over future remorts. This encourages your more extreme achievers to restart and reuse the content instead of staying stuck at max level however it does so with a cost to percieved “fairness” of the game as it opens up options only to those who are willing to relevel over and over again.

Raph said on September 25th, 2006 at 11:29 am:

I have no idea why more games haven’t done remort systems — I’ve mentioned that before.

I agree that the selection method for LegendMUD’s retirement system wouldn’t scale at all. However, I think the general principle stands. Yes, lists of retired folks fill up, but “high score tables” are hardly an unfamiliar mechanic, and there’s all the elaborations like “highest this week, this month, ths day, of this class” etc.

There’s also the possibility of using the retired characters as elements to weave into the game fiction; have them retire from adventuring and be seized up into the heavens to be demiurges, or sent to the capital to join the legislature, or whatever. They could then be called upon by their “heirs” in some fashion — intercessions, powers, whatever. This is akin to the Jedi stuff mentioned in the post previous.

A personal “high score” is also a good thing. One proposal we had for Jedi in SWG was that Jedi had permadeath. If you made it to master with one, you got a blue glowy. Over time, your account might acquire a bunch of blue glowies. You could then just summon them with a keystroke to show them off — it’s a clear sign that you-the-player are a badass even if you-the-character isn’t, because you have your blue glowy Yoda, Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, and Anakin all standing behind you.

I could go on — there’s plenty of other conceivable ways to use retired characters in scalable ways…

StGabe said on September 25th, 2006 at 1:24 pm:

Personally I just don’t think high score tables work. At all. Our company has been told by carriers that their market research shows that high score lists don’t attract/keep customers. And it makes sense. Sure you can segment your high score along as many lines as possible but, inevitably, if a lot of people participate (i.e. it is successful) then the list becomes dominated by only the most hardcore subset of your population (and with “traditional” video games we are talking about the hardcore of an already hardcore audience). This means that the other 99% of the population will never meaningful impact the list and, will only feel that their ability and achievements are undermined. I think that a lot of what MMORPG’s are doing these days is trying to trick players into thinking that they really are special/powerful/heroic/unique and a key to that is removing overt comparisons. So a high score list ends up only adding value for a very small %’age of your players.

There’s also the possibility of using the retired characters as elements to weave into the game fiction; have them retire from adventuring and be seized up into the heavens to be demiurges, or sent to the capital to join the legislature, or whatever.

Yep, definitely. Seems like a more immersive form of remorting although part of the problem here is that a lot of people don’t want to give up their name (they play the same name across games, etc.). An outright remort may be better because of this.

Raph said on September 25th, 2006 at 2:50 pm:

I’ve said much the same about high score tables myself. But what I came to realize is that once again, it’s a question of audience. Only the hardcore can truly benefit from high score tables spread across the entire playerbase. But many more will enjoy seeing where they fit in with their guild, for example.

Also, arguably, the sort of people who max out and remort and so on have an overlap with the achiever types who would enjoy a high score table…

Michael W. said on September 26th, 2006 at 8:14 am:

World of Warcraft has a PVP high-score table. You can find it here.

The honor system basicly is a ranking system based on how many battlegrounds you participate in and how many enemey players you kill. The higher ranks get better equipment/titles, eventually turning them into a PVP alpa-class.

And their “honor system” has done as StGame’s comapny said it would, fail to keep non-hardcore players happy. They are changing the “honor system” in the next expansion taking out the ladder and making it into a grind.

High Warlord/Grand Marshall required what I guess it would be similar to the equivlent amount of effort it took to attain Jedi in SWG. Several months of non stop grinding.

Its actually kind of funny how similar the two systems ended up, they are even letting HW and GMs keep their titles after they phase out the system…where do I remember that from? =)

Brew said on September 28th, 2006 at 6:12 am:

Currently, WoW, eq, and many of the mmo’s out there are level based. Retiring a character at 61, or 71, for example, would be insignificant when the level cap was raised in the next expansion (or the inevitable expansion when it does get raised)

Mmo’s raise the level cap to artificially give players a continuing feeling of character growth and development. (I say artificially, since most games scale somewhat equally – player power vs mob power by level – exp might be exponential, making it tougher to climb to those higher ranks, but level 60 is virtually just level 30 all over again…)

Some people play mmo’s for the sense of achievement the growth of the characters gives them. Some play for the achievement of Reaching and playing at end game. Giving a retirement option at level cap doesn’t satisfy either of these two camps.

It was a much more successful concept in the muds..

Raph said on September 28th, 2006 at 8:31 am:

But Brew, pretty much all the muds with level caps were also level based, often raised the level cap, etc. (Although I think there was far less level-cap-raising going on in the muds in general, perhaps because the game’s scale made mudflation far more apparent?). So the conditions aren’t actually any different.

Brew said on September 29th, 2006 at 10:36 am:

Yeah, i dont remember in 4 years any level cap raise, altho there was the addition of the ‘arch’ classes you could choose when hit 50/50 – previously, that was the cap, and you could opt to sit at 50/50, or immort as a titan – the addition of another specialized class added a lot of depth.

But again, that was one level cap raise in over 4 years.

with todays mmos were seeing level cap raises virtually every expansion

probably because the major game publishers havent really figured out how to make a truly engaging end game…

John Gardner said on September 29th, 2006 at 5:01 pm:

Something that a lot of ROM muds did that I think scales better is implement “remort” systems. Basically what those entail is that you hit maximum level and then you “remort” into a brand new character. You essentially restart or “reroll” the entire character and go down to level 1, possibly choosing new races/classes/etc. Usually, to give the player a reason to actually do this, the game would grant the character some additional options on their remort.

I don’t know if everyone here understands what “remort” means, so i’ll try to explain it. For most of the Diku MUDS, once you hit level 50, that was it, that was the cap. the levels above 50 were “immortals” or whatever each mud called them. they were the “in charge” people. Once you got to 50, you were stuck until you became an “immortal”.

Some muds added a “hero” concept, where once you hit 50, then level 50 had its OWN 100 levels (or 1000 levels on some?)

So the “remort” came from the fact that if you did not become a “hero”, and you did not become an “immortal”, you became mortal again, or “remortal”, or “re-morted”.

I don’t want to take credit (i do, i do!) but i’m almost sure that the mud i was one of the Imps on (Originally “Nitemare”, renamed “Arcane Nites” to show up higher in the mud connector list ) was one of the first (if not the first) to do the re-mort thing.

Our rules:
1. when you re-morted, you picked a new class which you haven’t been yet(still subject to race restrictions, no half-giant wizards!)
2. you became level 1 again. (same hp, same mana, same mv)
3. you lost access to all skills of your last (previous) class
4. if remorting for the N’th time, you got access to all previous classes (except your immediately previous class, see #3)
5. once you reached 50 again, you could stop remorting and have access to ALL of your skills again, or goto 1

In this way, a character could effectively multiclass into EVERY posible class. The first “remort” was the hardest, because you started over in a new class with no skills. but a level 1 remort had level 50’s hp/mana, so you could generally fly through the 30’s pretty easily. Subsequent remorts weren’t so bad, because you had access to your first class’s skills, and now you had even MORE hp (2x level50’s, etc)

This made PK interesting, as if you didn’t know the players, you didn’t know if a level 25 was a 25, or a 75 (remort+25), or a 125