<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss
version="2.0"
xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
> <channel><title>Comments on: The arts in MMOs</title> <atom:link href="http://www.raphkoster.com/2006/07/05/the-arts-in-mmos/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" /><link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2006/07/05/the-arts-in-mmos/</link> <description>Raph Koster&#039;s personal website: MMOs, gaming, writing, art, music, books</description> <lastBuildDate>Sun, 12 Feb 2012 06:02:55 +0000</lastBuildDate> <sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod> <sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency> <generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1</generator> <item><title>By: Ian Cooper</title><link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2006/07/05/the-arts-in-mmos/comment-page-1/#comment-10622</link> <dc:creator>Ian Cooper</dc:creator> <pubDate>Mon, 17 Jul 2006 22:13:00 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/2006/07/05/the-arts-in-mmos/#comment-10622</guid> <description>I&#039;m not saying that combat shouldn&#039;t be done right, nor am I saying that there shouldn&#039;t be a grind.  What I&#039;m saying (and it seems to be borne out precisely by the way you&#039;ve misunderstood me) is that unless a game has depth, it really doesn&#039;t matter how exciting combat is or how well the grind is designed.  Combat and the grind are only tools to keep people playing long enough to invest themselves in the world (this is what game designers seem to have forgotten).  But if there&#039;s no world beyond the combat and the grind, then the player cannot possibly invest himself in the game.
By the way, contrary to your first sentence, I&#039;ve been playing SWG on and off for two and a half years without engaging in any combat whatsoever.  So it wouldn&#039;t bother me if a game had poorly designed combat or no combat at all as long as the game was fun.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not saying that combat shouldn&#8217;t be done right, nor am I saying that there shouldn&#8217;t be a grind.  What I&#8217;m saying (and it seems to be borne out precisely by the way you&#8217;ve misunderstood me) is that unless a game has depth, it really doesn&#8217;t matter how exciting combat is or how well the grind is designed.  Combat and the grind are only tools to keep people playing long enough to invest themselves in the world (this is what game designers seem to have forgotten).  But if there&#8217;s no world beyond the combat and the grind, then the player cannot possibly invest himself in the game.</p><p>By the way, contrary to your first sentence, I&#8217;ve been playing SWG on and off for two and a half years without engaging in any combat whatsoever.  So it wouldn&#8217;t bother me if a game had poorly designed combat or no combat at all as long as the game was fun.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Jim</title><link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2006/07/05/the-arts-in-mmos/comment-page-1/#comment-10599</link> <dc:creator>Jim</dc:creator> <pubDate>Mon, 17 Jul 2006 14:32:15 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/2006/07/05/the-arts-in-mmos/#comment-10599</guid> <description>Ian-
The thing with combat is, if you don&#039;t get it right no one plays your game.  And if there isn&#039;t a ladder, people frequently quit when they get to the top of whatever ladder there is.  Once the rewards stop flowing, they stop playing.
And who&#039;s to say that the non-combat aspects of the game are any more fulfilling than the combat aspects of the game?  (Community, I know, but that can be transferred).  The non-combat aspects can be mined out as certainly as the combat / levelling aspects can be mined out, and it&#039;s tougher to tack a ladder on to keep rewarding people even after they&#039;ve gotten all the fun there is to be had out of whatever core mechanic you present.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ian-</p><p>The thing with combat is, if you don&#8217;t get it right no one plays your game.  And if there isn&#8217;t a ladder, people frequently quit when they get to the top of whatever ladder there is.  Once the rewards stop flowing, they stop playing.</p><p>And who&#8217;s to say that the non-combat aspects of the game are any more fulfilling than the combat aspects of the game?  (Community, I know, but that can be transferred).  The non-combat aspects can be mined out as certainly as the combat / levelling aspects can be mined out, and it&#8217;s tougher to tack a ladder on to keep rewarding people even after they&#8217;ve gotten all the fun there is to be had out of whatever core mechanic you present.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Ian Cooper</title><link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2006/07/05/the-arts-in-mmos/comment-page-1/#comment-10597</link> <dc:creator>Ian Cooper</dc:creator> <pubDate>Mon, 17 Jul 2006 13:50:40 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/2006/07/05/the-arts-in-mmos/#comment-10597</guid> <description>Hmm.  I found CoH to be intensely boring.  It&#039;s just kill, kill, kill.  Heck, there isn&#039;t even a bar or tavern area.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmm.  I found CoH to be intensely boring.  It&#8217;s just kill, kill, kill.  Heck, there isn&#8217;t even a bar or tavern area.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Rik</title><link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2006/07/05/the-arts-in-mmos/comment-page-1/#comment-10574</link> <dc:creator>Rik</dc:creator> <pubDate>Mon, 17 Jul 2006 05:42:06 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/2006/07/05/the-arts-in-mmos/#comment-10574</guid> <description>&lt;blockquote&gt;If there’s nothing there, no matter how interesting combat is, and no matter how palatable the grind can be made, the game will still leave us empty.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
While clearly I agree with the idea that there should be non-combat content, I suggest that City of Heroes shows that it is possible to have a popular MMO without any interesting out-of-combat content to speak of.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>If there’s nothing there, no matter how interesting combat is, and no matter how palatable the grind can be made, the game will still leave us empty.</p></blockquote><p>While clearly I agree with the idea that there should be non-combat content, I suggest that City of Heroes shows that it is possible to have a popular MMO without any interesting out-of-combat content to speak of.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Ian Cooper</title><link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2006/07/05/the-arts-in-mmos/comment-page-1/#comment-10570</link> <dc:creator>Ian Cooper</dc:creator> <pubDate>Mon, 17 Jul 2006 05:06:53 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/2006/07/05/the-arts-in-mmos/#comment-10570</guid> <description>The problem with current MMORPGs is that most developer-generated content goes into the process of mastering, and it is pointless. Once you master, all you can basically do is turn around and do the whole thing over again with a new character. This is the dirty little secret of online gaming.
The thing is, MMORPG designers consistently fail to develop alternative content unconnected with combat or mastering that might make the game deeper. They concentrate on making the grind more interesting and making combat more exciting, but in the end the grind and the result of the grind is not why we&#039;re here. What&#039;s important is the game world and how much fun we can get out of it &#039;outside&#039; the limits of the grind. If there&#039;s nothing there, no matter how interesting combat is, and no matter how palatable the grind can be made, the game will still leave us empty.
This is why it&#039;s so important for game designers to develop minigames and non-combat content. But at the moment game designers are moving away from that. Instead they are focusing in on combat more and more, as if there&#039;s something there that can fill the vast creative void that is at the centre of most MMORPGs. The thing is, the people who make these games are looking in the wrong place. It&#039;s not about combat. The more they look to combat to fill that void, the larger the void will become. Until they figure out that it&#039;s all about the richness of the world and the depth of our options, MMORPGs will always have that feeling that they&#039;re missing something.
The first game designer who realises the truth will be on the gravy train. But at the moment they all have a severe case of denial.  It&#039;s a truth that Raph used to know.  I&#039;m just not quite sure that he hasn&#039;t forgotten it.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem with current MMORPGs is that most developer-generated content goes into the process of mastering, and it is pointless. Once you master, all you can basically do is turn around and do the whole thing over again with a new character. This is the dirty little secret of online gaming.</p><p>The thing is, MMORPG designers consistently fail to develop alternative content unconnected with combat or mastering that might make the game deeper. They concentrate on making the grind more interesting and making combat more exciting, but in the end the grind and the result of the grind is not why we&#8217;re here. What&#8217;s important is the game world and how much fun we can get out of it &#8216;outside&#8217; the limits of the grind. If there&#8217;s nothing there, no matter how interesting combat is, and no matter how palatable the grind can be made, the game will still leave us empty.</p><p>This is why it&#8217;s so important for game designers to develop minigames and non-combat content. But at the moment game designers are moving away from that. Instead they are focusing in on combat more and more, as if there&#8217;s something there that can fill the vast creative void that is at the centre of most MMORPGs. The thing is, the people who make these games are looking in the wrong place. It&#8217;s not about combat. The more they look to combat to fill that void, the larger the void will become. Until they figure out that it&#8217;s all about the richness of the world and the depth of our options, MMORPGs will always have that feeling that they&#8217;re missing something.</p><p>The first game designer who realises the truth will be on the gravy train. But at the moment they all have a severe case of denial.  It&#8217;s a truth that Raph used to know.  I&#8217;m just not quite sure that he hasn&#8217;t forgotten it.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Ian Cooper</title><link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2006/07/05/the-arts-in-mmos/comment-page-1/#comment-10168</link> <dc:creator>Ian Cooper</dc:creator> <pubDate>Sat, 08 Jul 2006 05:51:48 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/2006/07/05/the-arts-in-mmos/#comment-10168</guid> <description>One thing I can do in real life is draw/paint, and I&#039;d certainly submit original artwork for in-game play money.  I think I could probably make quite a bit of play money for selling paintings - enough to keep my avatar fed and to buy my musical instruments anyway.  So in the best of all MMORPGs there would be scope for using one&#039;s real life talents and for playing roles for which one is not suited in real life.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One thing I can do in real life is draw/paint, and I&#8217;d certainly submit original artwork for in-game play money.  I think I could probably make quite a bit of play money for selling paintings &#8211; enough to keep my avatar fed and to buy my musical instruments anyway.  So in the best of all MMORPGs there would be scope for using one&#8217;s real life talents and for playing roles for which one is not suited in real life.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Ian Cooper</title><link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2006/07/05/the-arts-in-mmos/comment-page-1/#comment-10167</link> <dc:creator>Ian Cooper</dc:creator> <pubDate>Sat, 08 Jul 2006 05:43:46 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/2006/07/05/the-arts-in-mmos/#comment-10167</guid> <description>I agree with Raph about the &#039;wish fulfillment&#039; factor.  I&#039;m completely musically inept, ditto dancing, yet I was a master dancer and master musician in the game.  MMORPGs are the perfect place for someone who can&#039;t dance or play to roleplay a dancer or a musician because these games are at heart roleplaying games.  Musician is my ultimate role - I love pretending to be a musician even though I have no aptitude for music.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Raph about the &#8216;wish fulfillment&#8217; factor.  I&#8217;m completely musically inept, ditto dancing, yet I was a master dancer and master musician in the game.  MMORPGs are the perfect place for someone who can&#8217;t dance or play to roleplay a dancer or a musician because these games are at heart roleplaying games.  Musician is my ultimate role &#8211; I love pretending to be a musician even though I have no aptitude for music.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Allen Sligar</title><link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2006/07/05/the-arts-in-mmos/comment-page-1/#comment-10157</link> <dc:creator>Allen Sligar</dc:creator> <pubDate>Fri, 07 Jul 2006 23:32:11 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/2006/07/05/the-arts-in-mmos/#comment-10157</guid> <description>Well while we&#039;re on this subject about tools in/out of game. One thing I was always curious about, specifically r/t SWG.
In SWG I did a considerable amount of Architect crafting, which I thought was wonderfully implimented. Now I like so many others always enjoyed the variation that could be had in furnishings. Specifically the paintings.
One thing I always thought would have been a decent game related type of content would have been to let players actually &quot;paint&quot; (out/in game using tools) (SWG related) these paintings import them into the game, submit them to the Bestine Curator, and allow for a &quot;vote&quot; on them somehow. A percentage of the sales for the schematic/painting from the curator could go to the origional artist account.....much like what PotBS is doing with thier ship flags and etc.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well while we&#8217;re on this subject about tools in/out of game. One thing I was always curious about, specifically r/t SWG.</p><p>In SWG I did a considerable amount of Architect crafting, which I thought was wonderfully implimented. Now I like so many others always enjoyed the variation that could be had in furnishings. Specifically the paintings.<br
/> One thing I always thought would have been a decent game related type of content would have been to let players actually &#8220;paint&#8221; (out/in game using tools) (SWG related) these paintings import them into the game, submit them to the Bestine Curator, and allow for a &#8220;vote&#8221; on them somehow. A percentage of the sales for the schematic/painting from the curator could go to the origional artist account&#8230;..much like what PotBS is doing with thier ship flags and etc.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Raph</title><link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2006/07/05/the-arts-in-mmos/comment-page-1/#comment-10152</link> <dc:creator>Raph</dc:creator> <pubDate>Fri, 07 Jul 2006 21:56:42 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/2006/07/05/the-arts-in-mmos/#comment-10152</guid> <description>I agree with that. You&#039;ll notice that the sort of tools I described would actually drive a real musician nuts. No access to different scales until you unlocked, so you&#039;d start with stuff in the major key only. Limited array of keys to start. That means no modulations, for example. I&#039;d probably limit triplets, that sort of thing. You want to provide something that has limits on the tools so that it&#039;s harder to make something that sounds bad, so that the wish-fulfillment is there.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with that. You&#8217;ll notice that the sort of tools I described would actually drive a real musician nuts. No access to different scales until you unlocked, so you&#8217;d start with stuff in the major key only. Limited array of keys to start. That means no modulations, for example. I&#8217;d probably limit triplets, that sort of thing. You want to provide something that has limits on the tools so that it&#8217;s harder to make something that sounds bad, so that the wish-fulfillment is there.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: StGabe</title><link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2006/07/05/the-arts-in-mmos/comment-page-1/#comment-10149</link> <dc:creator>StGabe</dc:creator> <pubDate>Fri, 07 Jul 2006 21:45:28 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/2006/07/05/the-arts-in-mmos/#comment-10149</guid> <description>Yeah.  I agree.
However I think that the tools that you create for &quot;wish fulfillment&quot; are going to be different than those you create specifically for art creation.  For the former I think there is *some* room in MMORPG&#039;s but for the latter I think we&#039;ll see that MySpace/Blogs/iTunes/Pandora/etc. are going to be the types of technologies that best fulfill the needs of the audience.  The more effort you put into creating complex/powerful tools for creation, the more the MMORPG framework will be limiting to your audience and the more likely they will be to skip out and just use their own tools and post the results on MySpace.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah.  I agree.</p><p>However I think that the tools that you create for &#8220;wish fulfillment&#8221; are going to be different than those you create specifically for art creation.  For the former I think there is *some* room in MMORPG&#8217;s but for the latter I think we&#8217;ll see that MySpace/Blogs/iTunes/Pandora/etc. are going to be the types of technologies that best fulfill the needs of the audience.  The more effort you put into creating complex/powerful tools for creation, the more the MMORPG framework will be limiting to your audience and the more likely they will be to skip out and just use their own tools and post the results on MySpace.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> </channel> </rss>
