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	<title>Comments on: First sale</title>
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	<link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2006/05/30/first-sale/</link>
	<description>Raph Koster&apos;s personal website: MMOs, gaming, writing, art, music, books</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jul 2008 00:24:07 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: f13.net forums - So I finally bought a PS2</title>
		<link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2006/05/30/first-sale/#comment-7992</link>
		<dc:creator>f13.net forums - So I finally bought a PS2</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Jun 2006 22:04:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/?p=510#comment-7992</guid>
		<description>&lt;!--%kramer-ref-pre%--&gt;[...] This would be an appropriate time to link you to a more intelligent discussion on these matters:http://www.raphkoster.com/2006/05/30/first-sale/ [...]&lt;!--%kramer-ref-post%--&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://dev.wp-plugins.org/wiki/Kramer"><img src="http://www.raphkoster.com/wp-content/plugins/kramer.php?kramer=gif-icon" class="technorati-balloon" alt="Kramer auto Pingback" style="border:0;" /></a>[...] This would be an appropriate time to link you to a more intelligent discussion on these matters:http://www.raphkoster.com/2006/05/30/first-sale/ [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Tappen</title>
		<link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2006/05/30/first-sale/#comment-7385</link>
		<dc:creator>Tappen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jun 2006 16:25:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/?p=510#comment-7385</guid>
		<description>"Content is too available to be worth much; what is worth selling is the relationship to the creator." was the assertion that really struck me as important in this article.  I'd like to send this to Woody Allen to help him understand why added features on a movie DVD are an essential part of the medium.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Content is too available to be worth much; what is worth selling is the relationship to the creator.&#8221; was the assertion that really struck me as important in this article.  I&#8217;d like to send this to Woody Allen to help him understand why added features on a movie DVD are an essential part of the medium.</p>
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		<title>By: ...on pampers, programming &#38; pitching manure: Carnival of Gamers #15: Hard Times Besiege the Midway</title>
		<link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2006/05/30/first-sale/#comment-7350</link>
		<dc:creator>...on pampers, programming &#38; pitching manure: Carnival of Gamers #15: Hard Times Besiege the Midway</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jun 2006 10:47:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/?p=510#comment-7350</guid>
		<description>&lt;!--%kramer-ref-pre%--&gt;[...] At the end of the day, there�s a lot to be seen and heard in the carnival, and a lot of things to help earn our wages, but someone�s got to pay up so that we can keep the rides running and the bearded lady well groomed. Along those lines, Raph has an interesting take on the �should game rentals be banned" argument that resurfaces in the industry.  [...]&lt;!--%kramer-ref-post%--&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://dev.wp-plugins.org/wiki/Kramer"><img src="http://www.raphkoster.com/wp-content/plugins/kramer.php?kramer=gif-icon" class="technorati-balloon" alt="Kramer auto Pingback" style="border:0;" /></a>[...] At the end of the day, there�s a lot to be seen and heard in the carnival, and a lot of things to help earn our wages, but someone�s got to pay up so that we can keep the rides running and the bearded lady well groomed. Along those lines, Raph has an interesting take on the �should game rentals be banned&#8221; argument that resurfaces in the industry.  [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Kim Pallister</title>
		<link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2006/05/30/first-sale/#comment-7340</link>
		<dc:creator>Kim Pallister</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jun 2006 05:33:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/?p=510#comment-7340</guid>
		<description>&#62;They only care if you touch their hearts. They will pay for that experience

Well, my first reaction is "not if they don't have to they won't", at least not all of them.

But I digress.

Personally, I think the whole argument will resolve itself. As people enable different business models, some of which involve the "software as service" approach you mention, people will be given more choices. And then consumers will vote with their dollars.

MMO's, Half-Life2, and other examples are proof that a significant number of people are willing to pay for a quality experience even if their isn't a "sell it off the back end" recoupment.

Check my vote in the 'give consumers choice' column, thank you!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt;They only care if you touch their hearts. They will pay for that experience</p>
<p>Well, my first reaction is &#8220;not if they don&#8217;t have to they won&#8217;t&#8221;, at least not all of them.</p>
<p>But I digress.</p>
<p>Personally, I think the whole argument will resolve itself. As people enable different business models, some of which involve the &#8220;software as service&#8221; approach you mention, people will be given more choices. And then consumers will vote with their dollars.</p>
<p>MMO&#8217;s, Half-Life2, and other examples are proof that a significant number of people are willing to pay for a quality experience even if their isn&#8217;t a &#8220;sell it off the back end&#8221; recoupment.</p>
<p>Check my vote in the &#8216;give consumers choice&#8217; column, thank you!</p>
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		<title>By: Lobosolitario</title>
		<link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2006/05/30/first-sale/#comment-7331</link>
		<dc:creator>Lobosolitario</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 May 2006 22:04:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/?p=510#comment-7331</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;While the cited examples for movies and music were useful, remember the relative size of the audience - games are still a niche market.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I was waiting for this one to pop up, thanks :D
I think there's a lot more to it than this. Yes, games are niche to a point, but how much of this is due to the industry being inherently niche, and how much is due to the failiure of said industry to market itself properly?
More importantly, films, although they have very large budgets (I'm mainly referring to Hollywood films here) are different in a significant manner to games. Film publishers fund films, game publishers fund games. Film publishers, however, know their market inside out, and it's very rare to see a Hollywood movie flop. I personally dislike a lot of the mainstream Hollywood stuff, but I can't deny that it sells, lots. Game publishers, on the other hand, seem to have a pretty huge miss ratio, and make several flops while waiting for that one game that will make their quarterly review look great. End result? Money put into films is much more efficient, and, while it may not produce once-in-a-lifetime films every time, it will certainly produce profits reliably. Money put into games is a lot less efficient, and thus prices are forced up to make up for all the mistaken investments.


&lt;blockquote&gt;maybe game developers should sell games that deliver 1-3 hours of content for 1/4 to half the price?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

The question here is: what counts as content? In a lot of first person shooters I often get the feeling that I *am* only experiencing a few hours worth of content, repeated time and time again to stretch the game experience out for ten times its actual inherent content. I know that this remark is unfair in some ways, I've worked on enough games to know all the effort that goes into them, and know that every level had to be hand-crafted, even if it is filled with the same old baddies I was fighting in the very first level. But that's still the feeling I get in a lot of games, that the last three quarters are just the first one recycled...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>While the cited examples for movies and music were useful, remember the relative size of the audience - games are still a niche market.</p></blockquote>
<p>I was waiting for this one to pop up, thanks <img src='http://www.raphkoster.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif' alt=':D' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
I think there&#8217;s a lot more to it than this. Yes, games are niche to a point, but how much of this is due to the industry being inherently niche, and how much is due to the failiure of said industry to market itself properly?<br />
More importantly, films, although they have very large budgets (I&#8217;m mainly referring to Hollywood films here) are different in a significant manner to games. Film publishers fund films, game publishers fund games. Film publishers, however, know their market inside out, and it&#8217;s very rare to see a Hollywood movie flop. I personally dislike a lot of the mainstream Hollywood stuff, but I can&#8217;t deny that it sells, lots. Game publishers, on the other hand, seem to have a pretty huge miss ratio, and make several flops while waiting for that one game that will make their quarterly review look great. End result? Money put into films is much more efficient, and, while it may not produce once-in-a-lifetime films every time, it will certainly produce profits reliably. Money put into games is a lot less efficient, and thus prices are forced up to make up for all the mistaken investments.</p>
<blockquote><p>maybe game developers should sell games that deliver 1-3 hours of content for 1/4 to half the price?</p></blockquote>
<p>The question here is: what counts as content? In a lot of first person shooters I often get the feeling that I *am* only experiencing a few hours worth of content, repeated time and time again to stretch the game experience out for ten times its actual inherent content. I know that this remark is unfair in some ways, I&#8217;ve worked on enough games to know all the effort that goes into them, and know that every level had to be hand-crafted, even if it is filled with the same old baddies I was fighting in the very first level. But that&#8217;s still the feeling I get in a lot of games, that the last three quarters are just the first one recycled&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: CmdrSlack</title>
		<link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2006/05/30/first-sale/#comment-7313</link>
		<dc:creator>CmdrSlack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 May 2006 15:41:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/?p=510#comment-7313</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;
While the cited examples for movies and music were useful, remember the relative size of the audience - games are still a niche market.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Given the revenues posted by the games industry for the last few years, how exactly is it niche?  Perhaps the MMO genre is niche when compared to other game genres, but take a look at MSN Game Zone or Yahoo games or all of the other gaming spaces that attract a large segment of adults.  

All of the flak about rentals and resale is just another symptom of an industry that is still very immature when compared to other entertainment industries.  Because computers have come along and made copying so easy, people who own IP feel like they had better protect it even more.  Given time, it will die down, just like the people who initially freaked out when the first photocopiers showed up in libraries.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>
While the cited examples for movies and music were useful, remember the relative size of the audience - games are still a niche market.
</p></blockquote>
<p>Given the revenues posted by the games industry for the last few years, how exactly is it niche?  Perhaps the MMO genre is niche when compared to other game genres, but take a look at MSN Game Zone or Yahoo games or all of the other gaming spaces that attract a large segment of adults.  </p>
<p>All of the flak about rentals and resale is just another symptom of an industry that is still very immature when compared to other entertainment industries.  Because computers have come along and made copying so easy, people who own IP feel like they had better protect it even more.  Given time, it will die down, just like the people who initially freaked out when the first photocopiers showed up in libraries.</p>
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		<title>By: Prokofy Neva</title>
		<link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2006/05/30/first-sale/#comment-7311</link>
		<dc:creator>Prokofy Neva</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 May 2006 15:25:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/?p=510#comment-7311</guid>
		<description>I agree totally. I am so glad you wrote this. And it's very important to keep up this critique of those trying to curb sale of used software or rental of games -- because inside virtual worlds, there's an aggressive and vocal lobby of content-creators who invoke this special understanding of the rights of digital content creators in order to legitimize their attempts to control yard sales and tag sales of used items or sale of freebies. This is wrong, and an illegitimate grab at the economy by these content barons to keep their class privileged over others.

One problem I do see with PC games as distinct from others like X-Box is that if you have signed up for a MMORPG online with a game box code and made a character, you're stuck then having used up the code. You could sell your character or the right to delete him and make a new one, but game companies often frown on selling your account in this way, in particular because they don't want the liability for you giving out your password.

Still, people keep selling these games at yard sales in RL and selling the stuff in them at virtual yard sales, and God bless them, they should be free.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree totally. I am so glad you wrote this. And it&#8217;s very important to keep up this critique of those trying to curb sale of used software or rental of games &#8212; because inside virtual worlds, there&#8217;s an aggressive and vocal lobby of content-creators who invoke this special understanding of the rights of digital content creators in order to legitimize their attempts to control yard sales and tag sales of used items or sale of freebies. This is wrong, and an illegitimate grab at the economy by these content barons to keep their class privileged over others.</p>
<p>One problem I do see with PC games as distinct from others like X-Box is that if you have signed up for a MMORPG online with a game box code and made a character, you&#8217;re stuck then having used up the code. You could sell your character or the right to delete him and make a new one, but game companies often frown on selling your account in this way, in particular because they don&#8217;t want the liability for you giving out your password.</p>
<p>Still, people keep selling these games at yard sales in RL and selling the stuff in them at virtual yard sales, and God bless them, they should be free.</p>
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		<title>By: Steven Davis</title>
		<link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2006/05/30/first-sale/#comment-7308</link>
		<dc:creator>Steven Davis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 May 2006 13:18:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/?p=510#comment-7308</guid>
		<description>Every business would like to eliminate the rental market - unless they control it. Remember, not too long ago, VHS tapes were $70 or more to protect the rental market (when the studios got a cut, I believe)?

While the cited examples for movies and music were useful, remember the relative size of the audience - games are still a niche market. 

One thing that really aggrevates all of this is the self-fulfilling targeting of the "hardcore" gamer. By building games with a theoretical audience in the modest millions, game companies need to raise prices to cover their costs and risks... and of course they are paranoid about rentals as the wonderful "hardcore" audience is also poor and highly likely to pirate or rent a game.

Since a movie or an album sells one to three hours of entertainment for about 1/4 to half the price of a contemporary game, maybe game developers should sell games that deliver 1-3 hours of content for 1/4 to half the price? maybe less to reach a wider audience.

After all, the 20-40 hours of content model is from a time when there was more procedural content and custom content was cheap - text and 2D images.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Every business would like to eliminate the rental market - unless they control it. Remember, not too long ago, VHS tapes were $70 or more to protect the rental market (when the studios got a cut, I believe)?</p>
<p>While the cited examples for movies and music were useful, remember the relative size of the audience - games are still a niche market. </p>
<p>One thing that really aggrevates all of this is the self-fulfilling targeting of the &#8220;hardcore&#8221; gamer. By building games with a theoretical audience in the modest millions, game companies need to raise prices to cover their costs and risks&#8230; and of course they are paranoid about rentals as the wonderful &#8220;hardcore&#8221; audience is also poor and highly likely to pirate or rent a game.</p>
<p>Since a movie or an album sells one to three hours of entertainment for about 1/4 to half the price of a contemporary game, maybe game developers should sell games that deliver 1-3 hours of content for 1/4 to half the price? maybe less to reach a wider audience.</p>
<p>After all, the 20-40 hours of content model is from a time when there was more procedural content and custom content was cheap - text and 2D images.</p>
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		<title>By: David Edery</title>
		<link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2006/05/30/first-sale/#comment-7302</link>
		<dc:creator>David Edery</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 May 2006 05:58:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/?p=510#comment-7302</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;fighting against game rentals is a waste of time&lt;/blockquote&gt;

For the most part, &lt;a href="http://www.edery.org/2005/12/pre-owned-game-sales-strikes-a-nerve/" rel="nofollow"&gt;I'm with you&lt;/a&gt; on this.

&lt;blockquote&gt;Content is too available to be worth much; what is worth selling is the relationship to the creator.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I know that you're simplifying this just to make a point, but it's fun to talk through anyway.  ;-)

Agreed -- the relationship with the creator is very important. Game developers are also selling a relationship with a franchise and a community... one that can outlast the developer (or the lead designer, or the brand representing the developer, etc). In fact, given enough time, the creator might very well prove to be irrelevant. Joys of user-generated content.  :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>fighting against game rentals is a waste of time</p></blockquote>
<p>For the most part, <a href="http://www.edery.org/2005/12/pre-owned-game-sales-strikes-a-nerve/" rel="nofollow">I&#8217;m with you</a> on this.</p>
<blockquote><p>Content is too available to be worth much; what is worth selling is the relationship to the creator.</p></blockquote>
<p>I know that you&#8217;re simplifying this just to make a point, but it&#8217;s fun to talk through anyway.  <img src='http://www.raphkoster.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Agreed &#8212; the relationship with the creator is very important. Game developers are also selling a relationship with a franchise and a community&#8230; one that can outlast the developer (or the lead designer, or the brand representing the developer, etc). In fact, given enough time, the creator might very well prove to be irrelevant. Joys of user-generated content.  <img src='http://www.raphkoster.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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		<title>By: Rik</title>
		<link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2006/05/30/first-sale/#comment-7299</link>
		<dc:creator>Rik</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 May 2006 03:59:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/?p=510#comment-7299</guid>
		<description>Yea, my first thought about the "rumor" that PS3 games will have no resale value was "Are they going to lower the price?"  Because when a game is new, and I'm talking myself into it, that resell value is my safty net.  If it's one of those 75-80% of most games Blake talks about, well, I can sell it back the next day and I'm only out $20, not my whole $50.  This starts to fall apart when then want $60 on "Opening Weekend" for games of unknown quality.  Maybe I should just wait for the "Greatest Hits" version, and if it never comes out, maybe there was a reason for that.  Now, truth be told, I rarely resell anything, I come attached to games, and on some level &lt;strong&gt;&lt;em&gt;collect&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/strong&gt; them, like they were traiding cards and I'm not alone.  Oh, and that denial?  Weak.  "We haven't offically said anything of the sort, and if it's new policy, I haven't been told about it."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yea, my first thought about the &#8220;rumor&#8221; that PS3 games will have no resale value was &#8220;Are they going to lower the price?&#8221;  Because when a game is new, and I&#8217;m talking myself into it, that resell value is my safty net.  If it&#8217;s one of those 75-80% of most games Blake talks about, well, I can sell it back the next day and I&#8217;m only out $20, not my whole $50.  This starts to fall apart when then want $60 on &#8220;Opening Weekend&#8221; for games of unknown quality.  Maybe I should just wait for the &#8220;Greatest Hits&#8221; version, and if it never comes out, maybe there was a reason for that.  Now, truth be told, I rarely resell anything, I come attached to games, and on some level <strong><em>collect</em></strong> them, like they were traiding cards and I&#8217;m not alone.  Oh, and that denial?  Weak.  &#8220;We haven&#8217;t offically said anything of the sort, and if it&#8217;s new policy, I haven&#8217;t been told about it.&#8221;</p>
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