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> <channel><title>Comments on: A bit on how I think games work</title> <atom:link href="http://www.raphkoster.com/2006/03/05/a-bit-on-how-i-think-games-work/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" /><link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2006/03/05/a-bit-on-how-i-think-games-work/</link> <description>Raph Koster&#039;s personal website: MMOs, gaming, writing, art, music, books</description> <lastBuildDate>Sun, 12 Feb 2012 06:02:55 +0000</lastBuildDate> <sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod> <sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency> <generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1</generator> <item><title>By: Raph&#8217;s Website &#187; Are games about torture evil?</title><link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2006/03/05/a-bit-on-how-i-think-games-work/comment-page-2/#comment-143221</link> <dc:creator>Raph&#8217;s Website &#187; Are games about torture evil?</dc:creator> <pubDate>Fri, 12 Dec 2008 16:04:50 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/?p=363#comment-143221</guid> <description>[...] Here&#8217;s your explanation, from my theory-of-fun/game-grammar point of view. [...]</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<div
style="padding:15px; border-left:1px solid #dedede; border-bottom:3px solid #CCEBF7; background-color:#fcfeff"><p>[...] Here&#8217;s your explanation, from my theory-of-fun/game-grammar point of view. [...]</p></div> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Raph&apos;s Website &#187; Game grammar in action: AOC&#8217;s DPS bug</title><link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2006/03/05/a-bit-on-how-i-think-games-work/comment-page-2/#comment-138956</link> <dc:creator>Raph&apos;s Website &#187; Game grammar in action: AOC&#8217;s DPS bug</dc:creator> <pubDate>Thu, 03 Jul 2008 17:56:52 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/?p=363#comment-138956</guid> <description>[...] a game grammar point of view, this is a clear example of getting the wrong end of the stick. Recall the distinctions between the &#8220;salad&#8221; and the &#8220;dressing&#8221; of a game &#8212; the [...]</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<div
style="padding:15px; border-left:1px solid #dedede; border-bottom:3px solid #CCEBF7; background-color:#fcfeff"><p>[...] a game grammar point of view, this is a clear example of getting the wrong end of the stick. Recall the distinctions between the &#8220;salad&#8221; and the &#8220;dressing&#8221; of a game &#8212; the [...]</p></div> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Game Conversations &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Game Conversation 3 - Narrative</title><link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2006/03/05/a-bit-on-how-i-think-games-work/comment-page-2/#comment-129460</link> <dc:creator>Game Conversations &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Game Conversation 3 - Narrative</dc:creator> <pubDate>Fri, 02 Nov 2007 08:36:24 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/?p=363#comment-129460</guid> <description>[...] Koster argues that there are four stratifications in a game: mechanics, statistical variation, metaphor, and narrative. In Galatea, it is easy to see the [...]</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<div
style="padding:15px; border-left:1px solid #dedede; border-bottom:3px solid #CCEBF7; background-color:#fcfeff"><p>[...] Koster argues that there are four stratifications in a game: mechanics, statistical variation, metaphor, and narrative. In Galatea, it is easy to see the [...]</p></div> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Game Conversations :: View topic - Resources and Reading Material</title><link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2006/03/05/a-bit-on-how-i-think-games-work/comment-page-2/#comment-129309</link> <dc:creator>Game Conversations :: View topic - Resources and Reading Material</dc:creator> <pubDate>Mon, 29 Oct 2007 08:23:13 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/?p=363#comment-129309</guid> <description>&lt;!--%kramer-ref-pre%--&gt;[...]   Eric Zimmerman, Katie Salen (Rules of Play, Game Design Reader)  http://www.raphkoster.com/2006/03/05/a-bit-on-how-i-think-games-work/  http://www.escapistmagazine.com/issue/41/9  http://www.alanemrich.com/SGI/Week_03/SGI_Week03.htm  [...]&lt;!--%kramer-ref-post%--&gt;</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<div
style="padding:15px; border-left:1px solid #dedede; border-bottom:3px solid #CCEBF7; background-color:#fcfeff"><p>[...]   Eric Zimmerman, Katie Salen (Rules of Play, Game Design Reader) <a
href="http://www.raphkoster.com/2006/03/05/a-bit-on-how-i-think-games-work/" rel="nofollow">http://www.raphkoster.com/2006/03/05/a-bit-on-how-i-think-games-work/</a> <a
href="http://www.escapistmagazine.com/issue/41/9" rel="nofollow">http://www.escapistmagazine.com/issue/41/9</a> <a
href="http://www.alanemrich.com/SGI/Week_03/SGI_Week03.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.alanemrich.com/SGI/Week_03/SGI_Week03.htm</a> [...]</p></div> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Chrome Cow &#187; DD6: Martial Arts and Crafts</title><link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2006/03/05/a-bit-on-how-i-think-games-work/comment-page-2/#comment-4526</link> <dc:creator>Chrome Cow &#187; DD6: Martial Arts and Crafts</dc:creator> <pubDate>Sun, 26 Mar 2006 02:35:00 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/?p=363#comment-4526</guid> <description>&lt;!--%kramer-ref-pre%--&gt;[...] A recent post on Raph Koster&#8217;s site , A bit on how I think games work, poses an interesting breakdown of game design into four layers; the mechanical, the statistical variation or content, the metaphor, and the narrative layer. [...]&lt;!--%kramer-ref-post%--&gt;</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<div
style="padding:15px; border-left:1px solid #dedede; border-bottom:3px solid #CCEBF7; background-color:#fcfeff"><p>[...] A recent post on Raph Koster&#8217;s site , A bit on how I think games work, poses an interesting breakdown of game design into four layers; the mechanical, the statistical variation or content, the metaphor, and the narrative layer. [...]</p></div> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Addicting Entertainment &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Anti-Establishment is Fun. Work is Not.</title><link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2006/03/05/a-bit-on-how-i-think-games-work/comment-page-2/#comment-4228</link> <dc:creator>Addicting Entertainment &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Anti-Establishment is Fun. Work is Not.</dc:creator> <pubDate>Sat, 18 Mar 2006 00:46:19 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/?p=363#comment-4228</guid> <description>[...] over on raph&#8217;s site, he talked about making a healing game. a gentleman over on the cesspit has taken up the flag in argument against it. while his argument reflects some of the same feelings i have, i don&#8217;t think he&#8217;s conveyed it very well. [...]</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<div
style="padding:15px; border-left:1px solid #dedede; border-bottom:3px solid #CCEBF7; background-color:#fcfeff"><p>[...] over on raph&#8217;s site, he talked about making a healing game. a gentleman over on the cesspit has taken up the flag in argument against it. while his argument reflects some of the same feelings i have, i don&#8217;t think he&#8217;s conveyed it very well. [...]</p></div> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Mischiefblog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Settlement and PvP conflict (Amorphous terrain continued)</title><link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2006/03/05/a-bit-on-how-i-think-games-work/comment-page-2/#comment-3953</link> <dc:creator>Mischiefblog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Settlement and PvP conflict (Amorphous terrain continued)</dc:creator> <pubDate>Fri, 10 Mar 2006 14:24:45 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/?p=363#comment-3953</guid> <description>[...] I&#8217;ve been thinking about a game based around amorphous and locked terrain. After glancing over Abalieno&#8217;s and Raph&#8217;s (among others) discussion of games, I believe the mechanic is amorphous terrain which can be locked by player action, and the metaphor is settlement of a wild forest by a vigorous and adventuresome people. (Mechanic and metaphor provide vocabulary, a scaffolding which allows me to explore the game.)  Metaphor: the world outside is amorphous Not far beyond the golden fields of the village were serried ranks of forboding trees, the beginning of the wild forest. Good villagers didn&#8217;t venture very far into the darkness under the gnarled boughs, only much needed firewood and medicinal herbs could persuade one to enter that dim wood. It was rumored that trails shifted and that the way that explorers ventured out was rarely the way that they came back. [...]</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<div
style="padding:15px; border-left:1px solid #dedede; border-bottom:3px solid #CCEBF7; background-color:#fcfeff"><p>[...] I&#8217;ve been thinking about a game based around amorphous and locked terrain. After glancing over Abalieno&#8217;s and Raph&#8217;s (among others) discussion of games, I believe the mechanic is amorphous terrain which can be locked by player action, and the metaphor is settlement of a wild forest by a vigorous and adventuresome people. (Mechanic and metaphor provide vocabulary, a scaffolding which allows me to explore the game.)  Metaphor: the world outside is amorphous Not far beyond the golden fields of the village were serried ranks of forboding trees, the beginning of the wild forest. Good villagers didn&#8217;t venture very far into the darkness under the gnarled boughs, only much needed firewood and medicinal herbs could persuade one to enter that dim wood. It was rumored that trails shifted and that the way that explorers ventured out was rarely the way that they came back. [...]</p></div> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Glazius</title><link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2006/03/05/a-bit-on-how-i-think-games-work/comment-page-2/#comment-3878</link> <dc:creator>Glazius</dc:creator> <pubDate>Wed, 08 Mar 2006 19:31:50 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/?p=363#comment-3878</guid> <description>So. Grammar.
Mechanics = verbs.
Stats = adverbs.
Metaphors = nouns.
Narrative = adjectives.
Verbs can become adjectives (participles and gerunds).
Nouns can become adverbs (prepositions) and also adjectives (more prepositions).
And, of course, it&#039;s in the modern tradition for a noun to get verbed.
--GF</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So. Grammar.</p><p>Mechanics = verbs.<br
/> Stats = adverbs.<br
/> Metaphors = nouns.<br
/> Narrative = adjectives.</p><p>Verbs can become adjectives (participles and gerunds).<br
/> Nouns can become adverbs (prepositions) and also adjectives (more prepositions).</p><p>And, of course, it&#8217;s in the modern tradition for a noun to get verbed.</p><p>&#8211;GF</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: StGabe</title><link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2006/03/05/a-bit-on-how-i-think-games-work/comment-page-2/#comment-3876</link> <dc:creator>StGabe</dc:creator> <pubDate>Wed, 08 Mar 2006 19:17:49 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/?p=363#comment-3876</guid> <description>I think we&#039;re getting confused because we&#039;re talking about a lot of different games with very different formal properties all at once.
For example:
&lt;blockquote&gt;Unlike StGabe, I think that if instead of ten hits it suddenly takes 5 hits to kill my opponent, I’m still playing the same game, only at a lower difficulty level.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
See, now you are talking about a game that has difficulty levels which just means that we have added in some extra sorts of rules: if difficulty level == EASY then kobolds die in 5 hits else kobolds die in 10 hits.  That&#039;s a perfectly viable sort of rule to add to your game but it&#039;s still a rule.
Now,
&lt;blockquote&gt;Hmm… and here, I am unsure. After all, this is exactly how pen and paper roleplaying games are played. You do in fact get something every different, but everyone still agrees it’s AD&amp;D.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
AD&amp;D is a very different game than Chess.  Whereas Chess is a very streamlined, your-turn-then-mine, win-loss-draw style game, AD&amp;D is much more complicated.  AD&amp;D is a much higher-order process, it&#039;s the sort of game that has rules that take rules as parameters (in a fashion somewhat similar to Nomic games).  It&#039;s transitions resist formal definition.  But generally it is the same sort of thing.  Different players, abiding by certain mechanics, provide statistical variance for the other players.  Creating a certain dungeon for players is a much more complicated and less-restricted experience but, formally speaking, it has the same shape as creating a chess opening.  And different DM&#039;s, or DM&#039;s over time, will provide very different, varying play experiences just as a different chess opponent or the same opponent over time will provide different playing experiences.
I think that, perhaps, the content-creation mechanics of games have become such an important part of some games that we want to grant them their own category of game-design.  I think it makes sense to bring out their importance for some games but I&#039;m not sure that they are indeed that different, formally, from other sorts of mechanics in more simple games.  Also, I think it is a mistake to take from the importance of the content-creation mechanics in AD&amp;D or MMORPG&#039;s the feeling that content is somehow a core part of all games and not just a specific mechanic implemented in some games.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think we&#8217;re getting confused because we&#8217;re talking about a lot of different games with very different formal properties all at once.</p><p>For example:</p><blockquote><p>Unlike StGabe, I think that if instead of ten hits it suddenly takes 5 hits to kill my opponent, I’m still playing the same game, only at a lower difficulty level.</p></blockquote><p>See, now you are talking about a game that has difficulty levels which just means that we have added in some extra sorts of rules: if difficulty level == EASY then kobolds die in 5 hits else kobolds die in 10 hits.  That&#8217;s a perfectly viable sort of rule to add to your game but it&#8217;s still a rule.</p><p>Now,</p><blockquote><p>Hmm… and here, I am unsure. After all, this is exactly how pen and paper roleplaying games are played. You do in fact get something every different, but everyone still agrees it’s AD&amp;D.</p></blockquote><p>AD&amp;D is a very different game than Chess.  Whereas Chess is a very streamlined, your-turn-then-mine, win-loss-draw style game, AD&amp;D is much more complicated.  AD&amp;D is a much higher-order process, it&#8217;s the sort of game that has rules that take rules as parameters (in a fashion somewhat similar to Nomic games).  It&#8217;s transitions resist formal definition.  But generally it is the same sort of thing.  Different players, abiding by certain mechanics, provide statistical variance for the other players.  Creating a certain dungeon for players is a much more complicated and less-restricted experience but, formally speaking, it has the same shape as creating a chess opening.  And different DM&#8217;s, or DM&#8217;s over time, will provide very different, varying play experiences just as a different chess opponent or the same opponent over time will provide different playing experiences.</p><p>I think that, perhaps, the content-creation mechanics of games have become such an important part of some games that we want to grant them their own category of game-design.  I think it makes sense to bring out their importance for some games but I&#8217;m not sure that they are indeed that different, formally, from other sorts of mechanics in more simple games.  Also, I think it is a mistake to take from the importance of the content-creation mechanics in AD&amp;D or MMORPG&#8217;s the feeling that content is somehow a core part of all games and not just a specific mechanic implemented in some games.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Raph</title><link>http://www.raphkoster.com/2006/03/05/a-bit-on-how-i-think-games-work/comment-page-2/#comment-3869</link> <dc:creator>Raph</dc:creator> <pubDate>Wed, 08 Mar 2006 17:16:34 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.raphkoster.com/?p=363#comment-3869</guid> <description>Glazius and MacD, I think the answer is the same in both cases. If the ludeme changes, it&#039;s a new game. It might only be a variant game (certainly both your examples are just variants), but it&#039;s a new game.
Examples of ludeme changes that were in the grammar (which I am going to &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.theoryoffun.com/grammar/gdc2005.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;link to again&lt;/a&gt; just to make sure everyone sees it):
&lt;ul&gt;
&lt;li&gt;changing the topology of the space -- notice, not the &lt;i&gt;shape&lt;/i&gt; of the space; more specifically, changing the operational space available to a given asset (changing jump height does this, as does significantly affecting the movement a la Tribes)
&lt;li&gt;adding or subtracting an atom (for example, changing from one-hit resolution to hit location with head shots, accumulated damage, etc, adds an atom to the diagram)
&lt;li&gt;changing the loops within the game (which results in a different diagram) -- I think the example of chess problems is probably an example of this
&lt;li&gt;altering the choice of abilities available within the game as a whole
&lt;/ul&gt;
I explicitly leave out stuff like &quot;the shape of probability curves&quot; because, as the presentation states, &quot;mathematical balancing is a data issue, not a systemic issue.&quot; I also state that &quot;content is descriptive characteristics of a given problem,&quot; analogous to adjectives.
So just a different map isn&#039;t a new game.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Glazius and MacD, I think the answer is the same in both cases. If the ludeme changes, it&#8217;s a new game. It might only be a variant game (certainly both your examples are just variants), but it&#8217;s a new game.</p><p>Examples of ludeme changes that were in the grammar (which I am going to <a
href="http://www.theoryoffun.com/grammar/gdc2005.htm" rel="nofollow">link to again</a> just to make sure everyone sees it):</p><ul><li>changing the topology of the space &#8212; notice, not the <i>shape</i> of the space; more specifically, changing the operational space available to a given asset (changing jump height does this, as does significantly affecting the movement a la Tribes)</li><li>adding or subtracting an atom (for example, changing from one-hit resolution to hit location with head shots, accumulated damage, etc, adds an atom to the diagram)</li><li>changing the loops within the game (which results in a different diagram) &#8212; I think the example of chess problems is probably an example of this</li><li>altering the choice of abilities available within the game as a whole</li></ul><p>I explicitly leave out stuff like &#8220;the shape of probability curves&#8221; because, as the presentation states, &#8220;mathematical balancing is a data issue, not a systemic issue.&#8221; I also state that &#8220;content is descriptive characteristics of a given problem,&#8221; analogous to adjectives.</p><p>So just a different map isn&#8217;t a new game.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> </channel> </rss>
