[...] http://www.raphkoster.com/2006/02/27/what-is-your-ideal-mmo/l'm not advertising, take the thread down if u find a reason to [...]

[...] Raph Koster recently asked people what they wanted in an MMO. (Here.) Well, more accurately, what was the spirit of what they wanted? My answer to Raph was: I want an MMO where: (a)any single player can effect meaningful change in the world around him, (b)player skill (items/effects excepted) is what matters and not time spent in the world doing any repetitive task. (c)a world that would be interesting even with no players. If Days of Our Lives can go for this long and still have viewers interested, I fail to see why an MMO can’t change the story a tad bit every week/month in a player-participatory fashion. (Not just a static story with additional events tagged on with larger events happening in expansions.) [...]

1) Raids do not an end-game make. I want a MMO game that has the replayability of a game like COD that doesn’t rely upon collecting new gear.

2) The grind to 60 takes about 4 to 6 times as long as it should. If you make a real lasting endgame, then the character development phase needn’t be much more than an exploration/practice time. It’s good, however, that new players be segregated from the initiated for some time so that initiates can be reasonaby certain when they’re dealing with players of at least basic competency.

3) I liked the individuation of abilities with classes, but strongly disliked the gulf of disparity between levels and gear. The class balance was never right, but I think it’s impossible to ever really balance what with gear complicating the picture. Still, Blizzard seemed to take the attitude that certain classes should be better at dueling and in BG’s than others, which is just wrong. Classes should be about different means to reach the same ends, not different ends (at least in the context of pvp).

4) WoW is split into very specific modes: solo questing/grinding, group questing/grinding, openair pvp, dueling, BG pvp, 5-man instancing, 10-man instancing, and 40-man instancing. Why not have class stats and abilities vary in magnitude and effectiveness depending upon context? For instance, why not have the abilities of different character combinations in 5-man instance groups not give bonus stats or something? For instance, how bout having the healing abilities of pallies increase when a group has more than one pally? Or have them increase to priest-like competency when only one pally is in the group? The basic idea is to allow for more variety in how instances can be run so not every 5-man group has to have warrior-rogue-mage-priest-other.

5) The movement and attack machanic was crude compared to an FPS, but suprisingly still fun. Still, it lacked a little depth in regard to player movement and positioning (and what’s with letting melee guys run around my priest in circles to avoid my spellcasts in a preposterous manner?).

6) Money and gear are bad because they are really just disguises for the real currency, time. Getting new stuff as I advanced was fun, but only because it was mostly a bonus for my adventuring. Getting one piece of new epic gear every month with a raid is only as fun as long as the raids themselves remain fun. The 40 man raids are fun for the first 2 hours, less so in the third, then a burden after that. Each section of a dungeon is only fun about the first 5 times you play it.

6) What’s with the cooldown time? Casters are made to wait ~30 secs every single time in between engaging mobs to drink. (The priest especially, is pushed to the limits of his mana in a fight–and then he can’t make his own water!) The raid cooldown waits are even more obnoxious, what with the whole buff cycles.

7) Conveniences (mage porting, water/food making, summoning, fast travel) should rarely, if ever, be class specific. Should I really have to pick a shaman because I don’t like having to walk everywhere?

Travel conveniences should come sooner and be more effective. How about making walking on roads give a speed boost? How about speeding up the gryphons when you reach higher lvls? Face it, you eventually get bored with the world (especially Blizzard’s low-poly, low detail worlds). Until travel times mean something other than making the player wait to increase immersion/boredom and to slow the player’s efforts to advance, there’s no reason that players shouldn’t reach near instant travel between the places they’ve visited. (A realm-combat system would be a good reason to restrict travel ability: you dont’ want enemy players warping into your territory.)

9) I liked the sense of identity which class embues (rogues suck!), but then the only real way to be competitive in PvP is to know all about the other classes. So it should be possible to at least practice with a maxed out character of each class.

10) Battlegrounds are a good idea: they’re like games within the game which you get to play with your character. Unfortunately, the feature was essentially broken for me because of the wait times need to be fixed. Moreover, all players should be limited to standard gear and supplies in a BG. On my PvE server, the horde side was always an organized, uber-geared team who got to play constantly while the alliance had random pickup teams because players had to wait 3 hours for each chance. Needless to say, the Horde always steamrolled the alliance. (This is a big point: if there are PvP skills in a game, everyone needs equal opportunities to practice them. Battlefield has a very similar problem with helicopters and airplanes: certain players hog these vehicles and get all the practice with them.)

11) How about focusing on quest quality rather than quantity? The grind would have been so much more tolerable if I really felt I was doing stuff with my time. If Blizzard wanted me to kill 100 x’s, why didn’t it make the quest objective “kill 100 x’s” instead of “get 20 drops off of x with a 20% drop rate”. As it is, WoW’s quests are just thin disguises for the grind.

#1 Uniqueness (clothing and equipment)
Though not an MMO, Diablo II had a good bit of diversity. Being able to combine runes and find rune combinations was cool. So was the “unique” items that were very rare drops. I enjoyed MUDs where equipment was cool and had special effects like talking shields that complained when taking a beating or swords that triumphed on a resounding blow (typically these went with a special combat effect so it was not seen too often). And have special effects be hidden so only use can reveal all the abilities. Not just maps can be exploreable, but equipment. There was also certain monsters where you needed a specific set of equipment to be the most effective. Like have a certain item be secretly a skeleton slaying item, another for dragon slaying, and so on. Let there be combos so that only when all are used at once does the special ability come out. Don’t make it all be part of a quest or automatic to know this information though.

#2 Player Contribution
This is something I’ve only seen some MUDs do well. Really to let all players have a role and feel a part of the world, community, city they are in. I remember civic duties that required citizens to do their part or there was a game impact. Supplies can run low. Towns can be invaded and overrun. Crops, minerals, meats, and hides need to be harvested. Caravans need to be protected. Invasion forces need to be discovered and repelled (hopefully before damage is done). Walls and houses built (or rebuilt). Horses tamed. It’d be nice to see intercity commerce where the surrounding resources can be bartered with other towns. Disappearing livestock can cause a scouting quest that ends in a full raid force requirement. The building of player towns can be an event instead of just a 1 second poof. And they can just as well be torn down in time with lack of participation. The frequency and type of events can all depend on the location you are in.

#3 Challenging
There should be some skill to combat. Knowledge should also be a determining factor…either equipment to use or tactics to employ. Not a big fan of people seeing the level of monsters. You should know your foe…are you strong enough to take on lizardmen? ogres? djinnis? Seems like too many stats are given out on foes and not enough left for exploration and knowledge. Maybe have books of lore that can help give more information on creatures. Levelling should take time, have less levels that take longer than many that take almost nothing.

Yet, I do think the technical aspects of it can be used. Just make it seem like it’s different and unique entrances and design instances in a generic way.
For example, if you had planar travel of a sorts, gates to who knows where, you could have them go to astral fields of mysterious and unknown qualities. Now you can do alot with instancing and not make it feel like it’s a cheap trick.

Another note on my ideal MMO would be that marketing people had nothing to do with it, except to be fed info like feeding a lion raw meat through a cage, with a very long pole.

Raph wrote:
credit card barrier — a big turnoff for lots of folks.

I agree, but I don’t think this is an insurmountable problem. Game Time cards at retail would really allow more people access to these titles, as well as other creative ways of paying (like, for example, if the public spaces in WoW were free until level 20, for example).

However, I think the people who play the least or also the most numerous segment of any game’s playerbase, and therefore the highest profit players. So locking in everyone means locking them in too. I imagine it’s hard to break that mold at this point.

The non-gamers don’t have an inkling the stuff exists

I partly agree. Execs knew of MMOs, but it was always niche stuff, and somewhat negative media coverage (ie, addiction, Shawn Woolley, etc.). WoW is a success story on a level even big companies can’t ignore though. What they are ignoring is the full story though, the part that includes their much-larger dev budget for example. I’m trying my best to educate though

# interface barrier — these things are just insanely complex and confusing

They don’t need to be. I long for a day of more progressive UI: don’t show the stuff a player doesn’t need to bother with yet, including hundreds of people yapping in public chat. Some games are making strides here. Guild Wars is no more confusing at first than Deus Ex. As more gamers come to a genre previously dominated by hobbiest, they’re coming with enough interest to learn UI.

You’re not exactly sure what to do the first time you pick up Cartoon Networks’ Droppler either

gameplay barrier — the pacing not only of the experience but of the actual gameplay is all wrong for a huge portion of the market.

I don’t believe it’s the pace as much as the motive. One doesn’t concentrate on levels in other games. They get them through narrative and action. Newer games are making things a bit better. I hope for a day where there is no XP bar at all, and new abilities are granted entirely from quests. Quests with trainers. Why not?

Amaranthar wrote:
Now you have a secret room that’s already looted, and the rest of the puzzles still in place.

In discussions like this, I am often reminded of Ender’s Game, specifically Ender’s progressive dream sequence. Each time he entered that “instance”, all previous moves and decisions were there for him to be remembered by, and in some cases, shamed by. In this way he was repeating the same zone but encountered new challenges along the way, until the ultimate goal (understanding the enemy) was achieved.

Microsoft’s long-defunct Mythica was going to feature this, with modifiable worlds that remained that way for the players who modified them (they didn’t know how at the time, but I imagine it’d be like WoW’s RaidID system, a world built to spec for the leader of the group entering it).

1. Immersive persistent world. Storyline that draws me in (see auto assault… yes, thats what i said).

2. Open ended character system (see SWG)

3. Social options turned into a game but NOT limited to the game mechanics (see the Sims2)

4. A life simulator behind the core game mechanics (see also the Sims2)

5. Simple and intuitive interface that doesnt rob immersion (see WoW)

6. Non combat options that allow for a totally non-combat character with as many options for gameplay as a combat character.. Especially entertainment and civics options (see SWG or Seed)

7. Character design and image options (see SWG and Matrix) as well as a very deep character development system (an adequate one has yet to be developed by anyone, anywhere).

Enough of whats been done…

8. As stated before… something that truly teaches the player something real and useful. Killing is evil. Tyrrany is evil. Fear leads to anger… anger leads to hate… erm, wait. Cooperation is the only path to power. Easier said than done, I know.

9. A truly dynamic world that can generate its own events (from political upheaval to animal migrations) to challenge players. Constant change.

10. All things for all people: a game that ends the fight between the fun first types and the persistent worlders…

[...] What is your ideal MMO? [...]

Many of the classes available would get absolutely no XP from killing stuff. The classes would get XP for doing something related to their class. The merchant would be able to buy XP. The healer would get XP for healing other characters who need it. The mage class would be able to do some kind of test every so often for XP. The meatshield would get XP for surviving powerful attacks. The thief would be able to get XP for stealing stuff from monsters or other NPCs (PCs too if there would be a way for them to get even).

There would be classes related to things that dealt with how the person behaves in-game. A class that would get skills that focused on communication. A class that could only be obtained by doing something for a GM (in the game or in real life). A class that gave abilities related to having an apprentice (like borrowing some of their carrying capacity).

If a player breaks a rule, they wouldn’t be banned. Their character would gain a special class that they wouldn’t be able to switch from untill they got enough XP (by helping out other players). They would of course get penalties related to what rule they broke. If they spam, they won’t be able to talk to other players. If they used a bot, they would no longer be able to pickup items and they would have to gain enough XP to lose the class. If they scam someone, the word “SCAMMER” would appear over their character. If by chance/spite/utter stupidity they reached some special level cap in this class, then they would be banned.

There would be a way for karma to affect gameplay. The karma would basically represent a PC’s luck, and it would be able to be either positive or negative. Every PC would get a certain amount of points each day that they’d be able to use to raise/lower someone else’s karma, and they’d only be able to raise any specific PC’s karma a certain amount each week or so (GMs would be able to do so without any limits). As time goes by, a PC’s karma would slowly go towards 0. The karma stat would affect various things including the chance of rare items dropping from slain monsters, the chance of dodging/landing an attack, the chance of using a skill successfully, the chance of any items dropping from slain monsters, and maybe even the rate they gained XP at (if it was really high/low). If a player is rude, others will lower his/her karma. If a player helps out fellow players, others will raise his/her karma. If a player works to make the game’s world a better place his karma might get raised enough for him/her to be worthy of some special class. If a player is an obnoxious, racist, complaining, extremely rude, *insert adjectives of choice here* person who has nothing better to do than make other players miserable, then he/she might get a low enough karma to be given the class described in the previous paragraph.

There would be ways to alter the world the game takes place in itself. If a mage trys to overkill stuff with fire spells while in a forest, there’d be a chance of the forest being burned down. If there is a certain kind of monster that can only be found in that forest, it could become extinct. If that monster was the main source of food for some other monster, that monster might become extinct. If a character with the right abilities needed something that could only be obtained from any of the monsters that end up being extinct, they might be able to clone a few of the monster, or use magic to mutate some existing monster into one that will be able to replace it. PCs would be able to grow plants. Some skills would allow a PC to create a unique item that they would get to choose a name for. The item might even end up being something that NPCs make comments about from time to time (You call that a weapon?! That thing is more like a butterknife compared to *insert character name here*’s swordchucks!). PCs would even be able to create guilds that could get their own castles that they would get to customize as much as their money/skills will allow.

If a player reached some kind of level cap, they’d be able to get a special item/skill/whatever at the cost of having their level reset.

Monsters would interact with each other and maybe even gain XP.

There would also be some kind of dark world where PvP and PKing was possible at any time/place. Friendly fire would be allowed there. Players wouldn’t be punished in anyway for any rules they break while playing with their character there. Players there would get a huge bonus to any XP they gained there. The monsters there would be alot tougher. The PCs would be able to cause bigger changes to the dark world. Players would go to there only if they wanted to, and many might choose not to out of fear of having valuable items stolen from them and getting killed by other PCs.

Also, there’d be no rules regarding how much a player could sell an item for. If a player wants to buy a bunch of potions from an NPC, take them into a dungeon miles away from the nearest town, and sell them to other PCs for ten times as much as the NPC was selling them for, it should be allowed. I used to buy potions from NPCs and sell them at a higher price in dungeons when I played Ragnarok Online. It was like selling bottled water in the middle of the Sahara Desert, but with hundreds of people around. But then they decided that selling items that could be bought from NPCs for more than the NPCs were selling them for was the same as scamming. So gone were my chances of getting the most profit that I could by taking those hundreds of heavy potions into a dungeon that was not only infested with powerful and hostile monsters but was a long way away from the nearest NPC that sold potions, and selling them for a a little bit more than the NPC’s price (money in that game doesn’t take up any of the character’s weight capacity, but everything else does). There was even someone that accused me of being a scammer for doing this when I was selling the potions for a little bit less than the NPC’s price (thanks to the merchant class’s discount skill).

I think I’ve described my ideal MMORPG enough. I’ve even mentioned ways that my ideal MMORPG would solve a few of the problems that I’ve seen in some of the VERY few MMORPGS that I have played.

The apprentice class would mean less reason for a newb to beg for free items and tanking. Newbs that go right into the game instead of going through the tutorial (even though they get a few free items for doing so), and then beg for free stuff or demand that someone tell them how to do something, they really end up annoying me. Don’t tell me that everyone starts out as a newb! There is a difference between a newb and other new players. The newb doesn’t bother to learn anything about how to play the game as they’re downloading it and then expects to people to be nice to him/her just because they are new and are spamming them with requests for free stuff. The other new players will actually go through any tutorials the game has the first time they play it, had read any manuals/official websites for the game, and then proceeds to get their first few level ups and items on their own.

The karma stat would provide an incentive to use common courtesy (no matter how uncommon it seems to be these days).

The idea of a lawless dark world would give a place for things to happen that some characters would get upset by.

I’m sorry that I made my reply so long. I actually hope to create my ideal MMORPG one day (I’ve actually planned out how some aspects of it could work). If… When I do, I’ll probably call it “WarCleMa”, and I’ll try to remember to check this website again when I begin programming it.

Of course, too many people would try to make a “horror” game where you start with killing X zombies, then progress your way through ghouls, then slay the vampire to take his Phat Ring of Unlife.

To really be true to the theme, horror has to be something that comes at you on rare occasions when you’re not expecting it, not a graveyard full of rats for newbies to squash.

Conspiracy requires factions. Lots of factions. What’s more, you don’t know your standing with most of them, or even how many of them there are. I’m thinking at least 5 “hidden” factions, and many more public ones. Guilds should have reputations as well as players.

And it’s not enough that each faction either likes you or hates you…You could be an enemy, an ally, a dupe, an initiate, a traitor…the list goes on. I’m thinking your standing should not only have a like/hate rating, but trust/distrust and respect/disrespect scales as well.

Quests should be about revenge on the factions you hate, giving aid to allies, acting as a diplomat, helping one faction spy on another, helping one faction turn two rivals against one another, or just getting out of town before you’re forced to take sides in a conflict you want no part of (and maybe taking the boss with you)…not farming experience or loot.

One of a kind items should be just that–only one member of the entire gaming population should own each one. On the other hand, when you’ve stolen a unique alien artifact, you’ll get some unwelcome attention. The aliens need it back. The military wants it to see if they can use it. Crackpots everywhere want to show that it verifies their theories. Men in Black just want you to be quiet.

Death should be permanent, but rare. Losing physical combat should result in injuries lasting more than just a few minutes, however.

Will that cause greater issues with training, and camping newbie areas for weak PVP targets? It could. But then again, your reputation with the ruling faction is everything…and they won’t like you attacking recruits or bringing your troubles into town for them to deal with.

The player’s role in conflict shouldn’t be choosing sides at character creation and joining the battle lines. Rather, they should be thrown into the world without even knowing how many factions there are, and have to find who they want to work with as they go along.