[...] In Reply To #4 rastaban wrote: Unfortunately, D2 has grown to be a game where almost nobody is interested in playing from the lower levels and advancing slowly through challenges and careful equipment planning. Most people want to create the “best” possible character using the “best” possible equipment and in the least amount of time. There’s a very interesting piece by Raph Koster, who’s one of the architects of some of the major MMORPGs out there, about levels in those games, that speaks to what you’re talking about here (because D2 is in many ways functionally the same as an MMORPG) Here’s the link: http://www.raphkoster.com/?p=225 And part of the relevant section: Now, the amount of content required is driven, in the end, by your player population and distribution across levels. … in order to alleviate competition, youŐll need to provide a huge amount of content at the highest level band in your game. The effort you went to in order to provide a lack of competition to account for the initial surge of players moving through the middle levels will become obsolete, as the simultaneous population in the midlevels will drop over time. The single largest wave of mid-level players you will ever have, most likely, is in the first few months after launch. After that, youŐll have something like 50 times the ŇbandwidthÓ for mid-level players as you will actually need. This is a massive overspend. You can think of it this way: When the initial population of players came into the game, it was a little higher than the level of the [available content]. There was some attrition and some slow levelers and some really fast ones, but these distribute along a bell curve. Then the bell curve moves through the levels just like a wave. [...]

As far as the skill cap in UO, it was the only thing that made characters different. It was easy to hit, but hard to manage up until skill locks (which was a great thing to add). I think that taking the idea of “what you take with you” in a classless system might be a little complex to figure out how to balance, but it is an interesting idea.

The real funny thing about all this is .. if i remember correctly, it was a talk with Raph that made me finally leave UO all those years ago. The Devs at that point were attempting to make leveling easier/faster so that people would actually explore all of the world and not hide in the safe corners. At the time I felt like it was making the game too easy. Really the only “hard” part of the game was dealing with other players

Another thing looking back at my UO days .. there was no rewards for quests .. well there was no “quests” there was only Seer run events that were not even the same across the servers. UO had so little “content” aside from killing NPCs yet from this void players made their own and were happy with it. I dont see any of this “player made” content anymore. examples – Once I remember taming and releasing MANY animals (including dragons) for an “invasion event” of a player run town. Or playing security for PvP events so that people would play by the rules.

I guess if you give properly motivated people the tools, they will make their own fun. Isn’t that how D&D got started?

[...] [...]

First off, I’m not an advocate of levels in MMOs. I think they breed division among the players and glorify unrewarding, repetitive game-play. I agree with pretty much everything in these articles, but then again… I’m a different breed of gamer.

What kind of gamer am I? …and is there enough people like me to warrant making a level-less MMO?

A couple of years ago, I proposed the concept of a level-less system to an avid gamer community… it was not well received. They wanted that division, and feeling of destructive power… and didn’t mind trudging through mindless battles to justify it. I thought that people wanted to play together regardless of how new or experienced their characters were in the game? I was wrong.

Those that are defending the need for levels in MMOs are arguably more competitive minded players than myself. I’m a cooperative player.

I’ve obviously been fooled by today’s MMOs in thinking that they are geared for the cooperative player. I mean, they are role-playing games, right? Role-playing, in a traditional sense, is entirely about cooperation between players. Even when the respective characters are at each other’s throats, a certain level of respect exists between the players. RPGs have MANY aspects that have little to do with role-playing; which is a huge point of contention with me.

Competitive vs. Cooperative and Casual vs. Hardcore could probably be made into an effective chart with four extremes. Can a Competitive, Hardcore player enjoy the same game as Cooperative, Casual? I’d argue not… and that is why some people like levels and some people don’t. Unfortunately, there is little choice out there… so many cooperative gamers “put up” with these competitive MMOs.

Doesn’t a player need some level of competition? Absolutely, but that balance rests in game mechanics that have little to do with someone having an advantage over another purely because they can play a game 50 hours more a week than another person. I just simply cannot play that game… does that mean I shouldn’t be allowed to enjoy MMOs?

I’m a lover, not a fighter, baby.

[...] Ich habe zwar auch nur wenig Ahnung von Computerspielen, bin aber heute zufällig auf diese beiden – wie ich finde – interessanten Texte gestoßen: “Do levels suck?” Teil 1 und Teil 2. Da sind, gerade im zweiten Teil, auch ganz aufschlussreiche spieltheoretische Ideen drin. (Geschrieben übrigens von einem Gamedesigner.) [...]

[...] Dave the Brave (davethebrave) wrote,@ 2006-02-04 10:01:00      Current mood:GAMING Current music:GAMING Entry tags:d & d, d and d, d&d, d20, dungeons & dragons, dungeons and dragons, eberron, eberron campaign setting GAMING GAMING(Post a new comment) ayrsayle 2006-02-04 07:58 pm UTC (link) http://www.raphkoster.com/?p=225(Reply to this) Log in now.(Create account, or use OpenID) [...]

I’ve always assumed that Runescape’s system was somewhat inspired by UO’s, since the games are in many ways very similar…

At this point, I prefer not having a skill cap. Instead, I’d prefer that you can master everything, but kind of like Guild Wars, can only take a given “load-out” with you when you go adventuring, probably curtailed based on limited equipment and inventory.

This means that a higher level character will be more fun not because they are inherently tougher, but because they are more tailored to that player’s style, with more pronounced strengths and weaknesses. This represents a character following a specific path over time.

Strength being gained only by quests means that farming for XP would be less effective than going and doing something engaging or cooperative, as it could only fine-tune skills, not increase your experience pool.

This was inspired by the way in which Guild Wars allows you to freely swap skills ands skill points between mission, but introduces a different sort of progression whereby you adapt more than improve. Like other suggestions, you could stop when you like your character as they are, but keep doing missions for more abilities, or killing mobs to get better equipment.

Apologies if this idea is not new, I’ve only ever played Runescape (free, but so repetitive and moron-filled I quit.) and Guild Wars.

[...] I completely missed this when it was originally published, probably due to the holidays, and I wager plenty of others did as well. Raph Koster (of Ultima Online and Star Wars Galaxies fame) has an exceptional essay titled “Do levels suck?” on his site going into detail on why, wait for it…, levels suck. This was posted to the MUD-DEV mailing list, and is aimed primarily towards designers, but any serious gamer will be able to see the merits in the argument as well just by comparing their gaming experiences. From a gamer’s perspective, I agree. In fact, the online game designs I’ve appreciated the most have been the ones with the lowest barrier to entry for a new player to contribute to an established group. This is the reason I enjoyed Ultima Online so much – I never felt that any part of the world or any other players were ‘out of my league.’ Despite the fact that the world and content were much smaller than its contemporaries, the game still felt large because I was never confined to a small range of suitable content. [...]

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