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By N2H
Welcome to Raph Koster's personal website: MMOs, gaming, writing, art, music, books.

Forcing interaction

December 9th, 2005

A comment on a previous post prompted me to dig into an issue that has been tossed around a lot on the blogosphere, most recently in Jason Booth’s blog.

A long time ago now, I wrote in an essay called “On Socialization and Convenience” that

On LegendMUD (a fairly GoP environment, fundamentally) we added a socialization area with a bunch of nifty social facilities. The Wild Boar Tavern offers a lounge for chatting, goofy food to buy, an auditorium, a gift shop to buy goofy items like birthday cards, a wedding shop for in-game events, etc. You can reach it instantly from anywhere by merely typing “OOC.” It was there in an instant for anyone who wanted it.

It doesn’t get used.

On UO we had taverns with NPCs, dart boards, chess boards, backgammon, dice. There were multiple ones in every town. You know as well as I how crowded they were.

Leisure time in a mud is pointless time in players’ eyes, and only a small subset of your players will be looking to spend pointless time. (emphasis added)


The fundamental reasons for this, I believe, are incentive structures and opportunity. In that essay, I wrote extensively about the opportunity issue. In a nutshell, if the action is too fast and furious, people cannot take the time to converse. The faster the pace and the fewer the leisurely moments, the more likely that the socialization will reduce down to basic cues (shout-outs, expressions of fiero, “gg” remarks, disses, and so on). I don’t want to underestimate the important value of these — I just recently read an essay, can’t remember where, in which an academic evaluated their importance actually — but they aren’t the thing that leads towards lasting social relationships.

This led me to say that “socialization requires downtime” — which I didn’t mean as “put lots of tedious stuff in your game” but rather as “think about the quiet moments” or “don’t have a relentless furious pace.” If the cognitive demands on players are continuously high (as in an FPS game, for example), they will focus their attention and concentration, leaving no room to process other sorts of input. Providing moments when the attention can be divided or engage in forms of longer-stage planning is merely to provide an opportunity for the player to multitask. If you picture player attention on a task as a graph of intensity, it would look something like this:

graph of player attention

In those games where there is that pace, we find the characteristic that the sessions tend to be short. It’s abnormal for humans to remain at that high state of attention and adrenalin for very long. Indeed, stuff like flow is characterized by high attention but not by high excitement, or else it would be far too exhausting to keep up. In between the short sessions, players do things like watch the remaining players finish up the match, trash talk on chat, or go onto web forums to actually engage in community building.

Essentially, the precept is that you can only put a given amount of cognitive burden on a player, and socializing is a cognitive burden too. If you want socializing, you have to reduce the burden on some other front. And if you don’t reduce the burden, players will do it themselves — they will choose to stop playing for a moment to catch their breath. In other words, you have a choice as to provide rest stops, or else players will pull over by the side of the highway whenever they feel the need to. Thus the creation of social spaces such as the variously located trading spaces that sprung up in EverQuest in different locations over its history, or the UO blacksmith visits, or the example Grimwell cites in Asheron’s Call, the game Jason worked on:

Interesting is the twist that Turbine has experience with ‘hubs’ in AC1 that had almost no decoration. The ‘Hub’ lies West, Northwest of Arwic (which was ruined last time I saw it) and was a nexus to points elsewhere in the world.

The decoration of the hub was minimalist to say the least and yet it turned into a dynamic player gathering point serving the same functions as a town would (rest, grouping, trades, etc.). Because of the convenience in travel that the Hub offered (as a jumping point to multiple other activities, the players chose it as a central nexus. Even without the decor; proving that utility > appearances when it comes to hubs.

So that’s opportunity; but then there’s incentive structures. In the case Grimwell cites, the incentive was convenient travel, which translates crudely into “faster acquisition of experience.” And that’s where the above-referenced comment and Jason Booth’s post come into play.

Have a look at this highly interesting graph from the fascinating PlayOn project at PARC.

graph of leveling rate by server type

As Eric Nickell and Nick Yee write in the accompanying blog post,

Characters on PvP servers level more, spend more time playing, and are fastest at leveling than characters on other servers. Notably, characters on RP servers level the least even though they spend almost as much time playing, but are the slowest levelers.

The conclusion seems obvious — RPers level slower because they spend more time chatting. Since there is only one incentive structure in the game — experience points — players who divide their attention are penalized relative to the average player. In other words that verge on hyperbole, the game’s incentive structure punishes people who socialize.

Now, this is far from the whole picture, of course, because there are other factors that push people together. Most evident among these is forced grouping. The same incentive structure is used in order to convey the clear message that greater return on investment can be had by pooling resources. In other words, two guys killing orcs together can kill them more efficiently.

The thing that I want to emphasize here is that forced grouping does not force socialization, it forces teamwork, and they are not the same thing. Killing orcs is still a peak on the attention graph; nobody is having personal conversations in the midst of an intense raid. It is only because there is the likelihood of downtime in the close proximity of your groupmates immediately before or after the fight that any socialization can occur at all.

Again we can look to the FPS games for the stark example; all the team-based games, such as CounterStrike, put people into groups, but are too intense for socialization during the match. Little personal touches generally come out between matches or while waiting for the match end, when one has the time to type or chance to speak coherently.

So forced grouping is, paradoxically, problematic in terms of socialization because the incentive structure rewards maximizing the XP return during the time you are together, as opposed to maximizing getting to know one another. It pushes people together at peaks in the graph, not at troughs.

When Blake says,

Have the social interactions, of various types, but don’t force a person to have to spend X amount of their time doing that just because you (dev team in this case) think they should. Reward those that enjoy the social interactions, and participate in some way, but don’t penalize those that just want to whack the next shiny mole because they don’t want to spend an hour in a virtual bar watching a spinning character in order to go on with their desired playstyle.

the part that is getting ignored is that the vast majority of players will choose the most obvious path towards cognitive engagement, and towards the reinforcement effects of the reward structure of the game. In other words whacking shiny moles is easier, more predictable, and better rewarded, so lacking opportunity and incentive, people won’t do anything else.

What is the incentive structure that incentivizes forming friendships while in an attention trough?

As an aside: why even care about this? It’s worth following the logic here from a developer’s point of view. Most players come to play these games with already-established friendships these days. That’s a problem from the operator’s point of view because it means that the entire social unit can come and go relatively easily, in terms of its social network; it’s a self-sustaining circle of friends. The hypothesis (and it may well be completely wrong, but it’s based on fairly standard social network theory) is thatthe more tightly the group is “webbed in” to disparate groups in the game, the more likely it is to stick and thus continue to form a part of the community and possible ongoing revenues.

This is where I disagree with several of Jason Booth’s comments. He says, for example,

It’s a fool’s proposition to spend a large portion of your development resources on a space which provides no additive game play time, and generally only fools are willing to push for those types of trade off’s.

The question here is, of course, what is meant by “additive gameplay time.” If it means whacking orcs, then it should be evident from the above that having a space in your game where you don’t have to whack orcs is indeed valuable, even if its only purpose is to allow players to go there when they themselves decide they need a break. Otherwise your game will be go-go all the time, and you’ll be in FPS-land, with an attention graph with no troughs at all.

He also says,

Some designers argue that running from place to place helps chance socialization, but I’d argue that unless you’re the type of person who commonly meets people at the mall, you’ll probably run past everyone and not bother to socialize. Again, it’s the activity which provides the means and reasons for socialization, not the proximity.

But without the proximity, there can be very little opportunity (a bit, true, using tells and the like, but not much). The mall Jason cites is a bad example for a variety of reasons, of course; generally, the walkways of a mall (technically, I suppose that is the “mall” proper) are interstitial spaces; we are on the way somewhere else, and while not at a peak on the attention graph, we’re not at a trough either. We’re somewhere on the upslope, usually, heading somewhere with a modicum of intent.

A better example is a bar, or other such “third places.” The activity there is often ill-defined. They are spaces architected for troughs, rather than peaks. There are activities present, but they are generally intended as low cognitive burden activities. They are designed with lots of downtime in them: bar trivia games, a band with frequent breaks, eating food, drinking alcohol, pool tables.

The PARC guys also did a paper examining the specific case that no doubt both Blake and Jason are referencing, which is of course the use of “battle fatigue” in Star Wars Galaxies. For those who never played, this was a mechanic that accumulated damage to a particular stat that could only be healed in a cantina, which were specifically located in towns. The intent was to provide a designed arc to the attention graph, timing a trough with the natural end of a play session and bringing players to a “third place” at the right time.

When Jason says, “waiting to heal special ‘cantina only’ wounds doesn’t make me want to socialize; it actually puts me in a foul mood” and Blake says “don’t penalize those that just want to whack the next shiny mole” I think what we are seeing is that above all, the designed arc was mistimed. People do not resent even forced downtime when it comes at natural ending points. After a sports match, we are forced to stop, and yet we relax. After a raid, we’re not all rarin’ to go again. The examples are legion. It may well be that the biggest flaw with battle fatigue is that it accumulated too quickly, and didn’t clear itself during logged out time.

If I summarize the empirical data from the paper that the researchers connected to Oldenburg’s concept of “third places,” I get a list like this:

  • too many players “hit and run” the cantina, so they never really socialized
  • too many players macroed the services offered, and were bots
  • this may be because the players present are there not in a social role driven by their personalities — “third places do not set formal criteria of membership and exclusion… the charm and flavor of one’s personality, irrespective of his or her station in life, is what counts”
  • cantinas may ironically have been too crowded, or not thorough enough in forming a “mixer” environment
  • but cantinas that were not overrun with spammers did have a high “fun” index, showed evidence of socialization and conversations, and so on
  • cantinas need “regulars” who provide the soul of the place; by measuring various things, they concluded that the regulars weren’t actually providing it. But many of these regulars were probably spammers and grinders, not true regulars…

In the end, the researchers concluded that “socialization requires downtime” is imperfect — or, as I could phrase it, incomplete. They recommended the addition of things to create more “regulars,” high population density to create an urban feel, better placement of the cantinas so that they weren’t a pitstop, and so on. They also explored the notion that other games, such as City of Heroes which wasn’t yet out, might treat the whole game as the cantina instead; my personal take is that this isn’t really how it panned out.

My take on what happened with SWG’s entertainers: The original intent behind the entertainer profession was to provide an incentive structure to regulars, to get them off of the last spot in that advancement rate graph. Regulars were hoped to provide the entertaining conversation because it was a draw for customers, so the incentive structure still worked. It worked OK, though not great because of the “hit and run” factor, until it intersected with the instrumental play of hologrinders, which resulted in the spammer problem, which then totally undermined the entire concept.

In the end, we’re left with some basic questions and observations:

  • Do we really need people to form these new in-game friendships, or are the ones they had before entering the game enough?
  • Attention troughs are always forced, either by mechanics or even by plain old player fatigue. Can we architect them, or not?
  • Can we overcome the fact that forming new friendships in-game is to a large degree disincentivized by the game systems?

To my mind, the answer to these is far from cut and dried at this point.

*

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  2. Broken Toys » SOCIALISM! wrote on

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    Five Reasons Why Web 2.0 Matters Dion Hinchcliffe’s SOA Blog The 46 Best-ever Freeware Utilities Raph’s Website » Forcing interaction NPR : The Boundless Gifts of Richard Pryor Where’s the ‘Wow’? Xbox 360 Has a Better Design, but the Games Fall Short

  5. Van Hemlock wrote on

    while innovative, really ought to have just been a ‘free-to-all’ social emote type of thing, as they had a tremendous function in the downtime attention trough parts of the gameplay experience. More on this here, from the horse’s mouth; Raph Koster’s Blog - Forcing Interaction. The article contains some telling self-analysis on what he thinks went a bit wrong with the SWG Cantina system as first implemented by his own team, but also insight into the attention cycles of ordinary MMO Gamers. See? It is bad to be fighting ALL

  6. Raph’s Website » Monthly Report, December 2005 wrote on

    [...] Popular Posts Do levels suck? (2734)Do levels suck? Part II (1543)Forcing interaction (1099)Where does popularity come from, or the Wisdom of Crowds revisited (852)The future of content (784)From instancing to worldy games (764)Appealing to women (753)The evil we pretend to do (586)Some games worth playing (571)The end of the world (539) [...]

  7. Ramblings of a little Blue Gnoll wrote on

    Blogroll Joel on SoftwareRaph Koster Sunny Walker Thoughts for Now Sex, Lies and Advertising

Reader Comments
  1. Righ said on

    Hah, back to the point I posted in the other thread then. Yes, socialisation requires a cognitive burden.

    Combat - rewarded well both solo and grouped.
    Other - rewarded well grouped.
    People - not exclusively gregarious.
    Result - combat classes log on longer, and people addicted to the world migrate to combat classes.

    You’re not simply attracting the wrong players. It’s the design of the group participation and solo payoffs that is forcing people into combat roles even in diverse virtual worlds.

    Whacking Orcs solo has low cognitive burden. Defeating an epic boss in a raid group does not.

    Non-combatants needed low burden things that rewarded them in-game when they didn’t want the stresses of heavy player interaction. Going AFK and running a macro was not ideal.

  2. Raph said on

    A brief thing that just occurred to me: when people say that WoW is “more casual” it may actually be that what they are referencing is that WoW has “more downtime” in the attention graph sense: its activities tend to be more piecemeal, particularly as regards questing. Small bits of content interrupted fairly frequently with attention troughs, as opposed to graphs with high sustained attention curves.

    The definition of “casual” might actually be the frequency of the sine wave in attention?

  3. Darniaq said on

    This got long ;)

    WoW’s Socializing

    WoW is more casual partly because of inactivity. But importantly, it’s because of the rate and system of advancement.

    Quest XP is a primary contributor to their system in my opinion. It’s so ample that players are compelled to finish them. As a result, the focus is less on the incremental gains of mob XP and loot because of the expected big payout at the end. Yes, these systems can be ignored and players can grind, but questing is still the way to go for raw advancement. And it still requires the same system or running, fighting, and running back as ever, all which allow for socializing.

    Environmental Trappings

    I don’t think an environment needs trappings to compel socialization. Rather, it needs relevance. Trappings are a bonus. This is where the UO West Brit Bank or the EQ EC Tunnel came from really. These places developed as social centers for the same sociological reasons that train stations and airports or town parks get designed the way they do. That the EC Tunnel may have been accidental does not diminish the relevance the very world design gave to that social center. DDO is trying this with their Taverns. They’ll be relevant because, as stated by them, they’re regenerative points. People will want these places because they need them. They could add chess boards and darts if they wanted, but those wouldn’t be the reason players go, even if they end up using them.

    SWG’s System

    SWG’s Battle Fatigue was an ok idea, and filled a need. SWG had so many ways for players to advance, so many different playstyles, such big worlds full of ample social centers, and

  4. Amberyl said on

    EVE Online is an interestingly social game directly as a result of the fact that large parts of the game have very low interactivity.

    You point your mining laser at something. For a while, you’re mining on automatic. Your only cognitive demand is watching out for enemy ships — and if any come into your vicinity, there’ll be a clear audio alert. So, you can spend the time chatting (or doing some AFK-ish activity.)

    You fly from point to point on autopilot. Again, another activity that allows you to spend time chatting, with basically no cognitive demands.

    On the flip side, of course, if you’re not chatting (and getting drawn into the player politics and economy), EVE is an incredibly dull game.

    It does suggest that automating travel, even if it’s still a timesink, has distinct advantages. For instance, I’d probably spend a lot more time chatting on World of Warcraft if I weren’t constantly interrupting my line of typing in order to guide my character’s movement while running long distances.

  5. Raph said on

    Darniaq, I think your text got cut off…

  6. Zonk said on

    Yay for text preview. Thanks, Raph.

    My wife spent a significant part of her time playing SWG in taverns. Dancing and tailoring were her activities of choice, and so I got to hear a lot of in-your-ear “can’t you tell these people why this is wrong?” kind of comments from her.

    Tailoring, she loved. She’d occasionally come out hunting with me (this was pre-CU, obviously), but for the most part she was happiest crafting and selling. On this level, she greatly enjoyed forced interaction. She often spent time hanging out with her tailor hat on doing special orders for people and generally improving the quality of clothing that her fellow players had access to.

    Dancing was another story. Even prior to the hologrinders, she found the inattention and rudeness of the floating clientel extremely offputting. She always tried to strike up conversations with visitors, but because of the brusqueness of her experiences she adopted a policy of only talking to them if they talked to her first.

    Looking back on it, she essentially played entirely within the troughs of other people’s game experiences. For her, putting on a show for a few bar patrons was a peak, while it was a trough for the visitors.

    Perhaps this offset wavelength on the part of patron and dancer contributed to the poor reception the mechanic recieved.

  7. Nyght said on

    Not just the frequency but the ability to break from play altogether. It needs to be multitasked with RL for a mom with kids, dad’s evenings, or the disabled guy how has to take breaks often. Casual was never about hours played or session length.

    And this runs in direct tension to your desire to reward or require grouping.

    DQ is right about the trappings. If you had done more hub and spoke travel in SWG with starport bars for the entertainers, the drive bys would have seemed natural.

    And finally, proximity does not require avatar to avatar meetings. Regional or interest group chats work wel..

  8. Darniaq said on

    Darniaq, I think your text got cut off…

    Many Bothans died to bring me that information too! And it previewed just fine too I think. I wonder if there’s some sort of character limit in the comments?

    Hrm, ok, going from memory:

    SWG’s Battle Fatigue was an ok idea, and filled a need. SWG had so many ways for players to advance, so many different playstyles, such big worlds full of ample social centers, and the ability for players to make their own that there definitely were needs to bring people together.

    However, my concern at the time and throughout (as a two-time Master Musician and member of a player band) was the forcing together of such diametrically opposing playstyles. It felt forced and players knew it. And, BF was sort of overkill in a system with Wounds already. The latter could be healed in the field by the very same people who specifically were going there to provide incremental healing. This made sense to everyone.

    Dedicated socializers didn’t care about their ability to heal, buff, nor stat adjust. They were there to have a very different form of fun from the combatants in the game, probably having more in common with crafters than anything else. To me, the system was not really a total wheel between RPers, Crafters, Combatants back to RPers, but rather two concentric rings overlapping Crafters:

    RPers Crafters Combants

    (and when I say RPers, I mean people who spent all their time enjoying the forms of delivering entertainment, not those who spoke in Aurabesh :) ).

    Within those three headings, the game already supported mostly-adequate downtime for socializing. I would say though that the least supported were Dancers and Musicians. While players could program macros of entire songs (with proper pauses less they hit buffer problems), flourishing interrupted typing every sixth flourish activation. This wasn’t a huge deal, but I always found it ironic that the people most interested in talking had a system least conducive to doing so :)

    I use this as an example of the tricky balance between compelling socializing (through social centers and planned downtime) and forcing it because of world requirements. Entire parts of SWG have always been ghost towns. To prevent that, each server would probably need to have supported at least four or five times the number of concurrent characters, so that meta groups could “adopt” their own towns, and players would have had to reduce the number of places they could start in (which eventually did happen). They’d still become ghost towns once Player Cities came out though, so perhaps simply having less cities to start with would have been better (if that was within your team’s control)?

  9. Darniaq said on

    Hmm, no clipping. Ok, so I’m a newb :)

  10. Eric Random said on

    I agree with what you wrote, but I have a few points to add.

    Repetition of task motivates people to find the least energy requirement for the task. If travel, XP gain, item sale and acquisition, etc. are repetitive, as they are in most of these games, people will seek the route that requires the least amount of energy. This would be considered rational behavior as people, generally, operate in their own best interests.

    If both soloing and grouping are equally advantaged in experience and wealth gain, people would choose soloing, as grouping has energy requirements in formation and organization. Thus, equal advantages actually is an incentive towards solo activity. One aspect of advantaged grouping balances its cost of formation and organization to allow for the rewards to outweigh the costs. This balance, when viewed only on the basis of experience gain, can be perceived as forced grouping. This agrees with your point that “forced grouping does not force socialization, it forces teamwork.”

    But, this can get out of hand. If grouping is rediculously more advantageous than best case soloing, such as XP earned in 1 hour of casual grouping equals five hours of focused soloing, and group environments are some distance from solo environments, it can create the situation in poor grouping environments of people waiting long periods of time for group formation as soloing may effect grouping opportunity. Further, it can increase the reliance upon the number of concurrent users for an enjoyable game which can accelerate emmigration in subscriber downturns, among other problems.

    “there is the likelihood of downtime in the close proximity of your groupmates immediately before or after the fight that any socialization can occur at all.”

    Socialization does not require proximity, but group affiliation acts as a socialization catalyst. It initiates conversation through shared experience and cooperation. Other affiliations can initiate this as well, without proximity. This concept is lessened in effect, though, if designer intention or technology includes proximity as favorable to player interaction. With current virtual limitations in conversational physics, players need not see one another to effectively interact.

    This does still maintain that socialization requires downtime. But, there is a consideration of the minimal cognitive load that can be maintained that allows for socialization. Downtime need not be the absence of activity, but only a qualified reduction in pace.

    Just some thoughts.

  11. Zonk said on

    To pick up on what Darniaq said, I always thought it was a shame more wasn’t ‘done’ with the real cities. All those explorers and hunters that wanted a place to store their stuff would have been shoo-ins for instanced apartment dwellings somewhere in the cities proper. (ala FFXI) It would have made for convenient access to vendor terminals and starports, while allowing them someplace to hang their hat and store their meat.

  12. Eric Random said on

    “It felt forced and players knew it.”

    I think part of this is an aspect of fictional integrity. The feature did not seem natural or intuitive which exposed its design model. This reveals the real nature of the world causing the player to peer beyond the magic circle.

    Further, it was a repetitive model which would breed maximum gain through minimum work which encourages short cuts like macroing, spamming, and brief, functional interaction. Does meaningful socialization occur there? Of course, it is a nexus. There will always be a percentage of people interested in socializing and they will be attracted to those areas where there are people to socialize with. Perhaps it is because it is not considered a natural nexus?

    Even in the emergence of a natural nexus, such as those which form through intersecting interest and activity, fueled by repetition, short cut behavior still occurs. This is because the yardstick in which we are measuring failure or flaw is exclusively the amount and degree of meaningful socialization.

    Perhaps the only way to motivate meaningful socializing is to make socializing meaningful as well as through management of proximity and functional relationships.

    “It needs to be multitasked with RL for a mom with kids.”

    Casual play is interruptible play. Interruptible play allows for voluntary downtime. That is, the player sets the pace, but the pace has a maximum provided by forced downtime. The player can then operate as slow as the player wants, or as fast as the game allows with minimum penalty.

  13. Distar said on

    Compared to the current MMORPG generation (WoW, EQ2) the major early games had a much higher potential for socialization.
    Socialization requires the possiblitly for direct interaction. UO had more socialization because players had to interact as they met (no tells over distance in the beginning) and you had to socialize to survive pks or to pk effectively.
    EQ1 in the early days required socialization because the game was difficult - you did not get far without friendships. You needed reliable people to call for help with your lost corpse. Camping something for hours with long meditation times was the chance for socialization and building longer lasting friendships. Of course the Commonlands Bazaar was a socialization tool as well before they destroyed it by implementing a bazaar without the need for interaction.

    But now something offtopic: Raph, how far are you involved in the recent destruction of SWG? In beta you had a vision for the game and it had so much potential. Now its being destroyed while you are still creative director of SOE - do you just watch this silently?

  14. Darniaq said on

    I don’t think difficulty plays a strong part. Needing to group doesn’t mean the game is hard. In fact, the hardest part is the grouping itself, the gathering of people willing to dedicate exclusive time to a longish-term pursuit. Further, there’s ample example of non-combat social-type activities pervading the societies in even the most combat-overt titles like CoH and WoW.

    Casual play is interruptible play. Interruptible play allows for voluntary downtime. That is, the player sets the pace, but the pace has a maximum provided by forced downtime. The player can then operate as slow as the player wants, or as fast as the game allows with minimum penalty.

    I completely agree with this. I never really felt that Casual players wanted a slower pace of advancement. Their desires are the same as those labeled “powergamers” or “hardcore”. They just have to accept certain things though for generally RL considerations. As such, games that allow them to set their own pace are more desirable than those with overt exclusivity requirements.

    However, in this regard, and I’ve been disagreed with before about this :), I’d so most games offer some form of Casualness to them, as long as:
    The casual player knows themselves well enough to understand they are, in fact, casual as defined by the game.
    They do not continually compare their own achievements to others. Keeping up with the Joneses is as much a part of MMOGs as it is in RL. Knowing the true situation of the Joneses though helps people deal with their own situations much better. In MMOGs based on time-requirements in particular.

  15. Jason Booth said on

    Some good points here Raph, but where to start.. hmmm..

    First off, socialization can be a valid form of game play time; so I don’t disagree with the idea of social spaces entirely. What I did have a problem with while working on DDO was spending about half of the art budget on a socialization space which effectively made the player feel cramped, forced in, and forced to socialize. Point is, a small world would have been cheaper to develop and render, while better for the player’s perception of possibility space.

    AC1’s social hubs are entirely oppertunity based; the popular towns and gathering points all have to do with proximity to other locations. I’d be surprised to see a case in another game where this isn’t true.

    Now what happens when you remove proximity from the picture all together? Puzzle Pirates practically lets you teleport anywhere in the world, play games with anyone anywhere in the world through the tavern game tables, and suffers no negative social effects from it. Would making you have to run from place to place really help that game? Given the number of choices of puzzles to play, it would likely mean I wouldn’t be able to find players to play against at my same skill level, or would have to spend hours finding them before I could play with them. In essence, physical space constraints would actually hurt my play experience. I think the same *can* be true of traditional MMPs.

    As for pacing, I think all your points are right on. You need a peak and a low; pure intensity the entire time will simply not work. And while I have a problem with the “low intensity all the time” approach many of these games have taken in the past, it’s more of an objection to not having a choice (after all, I enjoy low intensity games like Advanced Wars and MtG a lot). To me, the momement to moment experience of most MMP’s is like playing Guitar Hero on “I love Rock and Roll” on easy 10,000 times in a row to unlock the next song. Once or twice it’s fun, but then I want to move on.

    If we applied traditional MMP design patterns like the grind to a game like guitar hero, would you want to play it? I realize the alternative is a content nightmare, but isn’t that what we should be striving towards?

    Now, onto your questions:

    - Do we really need people to form these new in-game friendships, or are the ones they had before entering the game enough?

    I’d say it’s preferable to have them bond with new people, but we can’t force them to do it, and someone with many friends allready playing the game will have little incentive dispite our attempts to coerce them.

    - Attention troughs are always forced, either by mechanics or even by plain old player fatigue. Can we architect them, or not?

    Yes, but with the problem that we cannot architect them at the right time. Using your anology, if we let the player pull over on the side of the highway, then they will always find a trough when they need it. If we always choose the rest stop for them instead, we run the risk of tiring them out before they get there, or forcing them into the trough too early. Much like a difficulty curve, it’s a highly personalized set of parameters.

    - Can we overcome the fact that forming new friendships in-game is to a large degree disincentivized by the game systems?

    Yes, and we can design games which encourage socialization within the game system and reward it accourdingly. There are perfect examples of that out there allready. Take friendster or myspace, for instance. Your exploration space is your social network, not a 3d world. While frienster is obviously flawed as a direct example, it does offer some glimpses into that type of design. Features like “who’s viewed my profile”, “relationship status”, and “people in your area” are early attempts at introductionary tactics.

    Even AC1 had an attempt at this with the Allegiance system. Sure, for some it came off like a bad amway scam, but for others it worked wonders. There were people that made it to the level cap entirely based off allegiance XP as well.

    Unfortunately I don’t see a lot of experimentation in this space as of late, and come to think of it, your one of the few designers who actually seems to still be thinking about it. The guild is not the end all be all of social structures, and it seems as if this is a huge area of untapped potential.

    Finally, I think it’s important to compare our music systems (SWG/AC2) as social systems. Yours was integrated into the game systems in a way that forced people to use it, while mine was simply there if you wanted to use it. I would have liked to have integrated it more into AC2’s game systems, but the music system was my refuge in the development hell which consumed AC2, it was my place to hide where no one would bother me.

    That said, I think the social fallout was pretty different. From what I gather of SWG’s, it was mostly a single or small group experience which was necissary for the game’s functions. AC2’s was used far less (some players had no idea it even existed), but there were quite a few jams that had 40+ players involved for many hours with no reward system except the enjoyment had. My intent with that system was simply to create a social game play which would be useful during down time; not as a construct to create down time. The idea is that perhaps a really good jam would draw in other people; and once drawn in, they’d strike up a conversation and perhaps go on a quest. In that respect, I think it was quite successful. I’d be interested in hearing more of your thoughts on your intentions and how things played out with the SWG music system..

  16. Evangolis said on

    First off, on these graphs and studies, don’t forget the iceberg effect. I can remember many nights where I had guildchat up in a window in the corner while I traveled, or xp’d, or whatever. Never said a word, but the steady roll of the guild chatting was a comfort and a pleasure which I could follow as I wanted. That is one of the great advantages of chat socials vs. voice chat, and I think the desire for the latter in PvP+ settings fits the general points hear reasonably. In any event, I suspect people such as myself, who are passive socializers, will be omitted from these measurements.

    Second, as an official armchair designer, I am required to tell senior designers how to do their jobs at every opportunity, and I shan’t pass this one up. I have two system suggestions here, one of which I’ve pushed before.

    The first system is game mediated grouping. The objective here is to decrease the cost of grouping by turning the group leadership role over to the game via NPCs. The simplest example case would be a wall defense, where players join a ‘group’ via a narrative centered NPC (call him the Lame Captain, yes it’s a pun) who is trying to hold a wall under attack from without. However, this group has important differences from a player-led group. (And the existence of such groups is an addition to traditional PC led groups)

    The differences are these. First, there is no upper group limit, and level ranges should be notably wide, preferably full spectrum. Second, the play area is specially bounded (probably a set of instances), generally allowing things like perching (although NPCs would have counter tactics). Third, group xp is limited by player participation; a player who is effectively AFK would get little or no experience. Fourth, spawns are triggered by each player, and are personalized to the player. Specifically, an archer would tend to trigger archer spawns that would spawn at range, aggroed on the archer, and dueling the archer directly from a distance; melees would face close up spawns (A ladder appears on the wall near you, and an Orc with an axe swarms over). Finally, the spawns would be responsive to the player state; an OOM mage would probably not trigger a spawn, or would trigger a very weak melee spawn (A Wounded Orc staggers toward you.). In addition to power level restrictions, exhausted PCs, or PCs who needed/wanted to disengage would have a fallback position where they could safely recover, perhaps with low end NPC buffers/healers to provide support and narrative continuity.

    The approach here is to allow players to in effect solo together, giving them a common experience with reduced common risk. Further narrative hooks might encourage players to form into traditional groups and execute quest driven missions from this starting point.

    The second system is a non-combat one, growing out of the things I’ve read here, as well as the various transmutations of the EQ1 marketplace, starting with the EC tunnel and moving through the various Bazaars, combined with transportation hubs including the Nexus and the Plane of Knowledge. I would combine all of these into a common decentralized system that would try to accommodate trade, transport and socializations in a set of common areas. It would also attempt to address the issues of chat and graphical lag that such areas have typically exhibited.

    I’d set it up as a hub and spoke system, with the central hub being constructed so the greatest polygon density lay on a relatively steep conical surface, such as a steep hill or peak. This area would have relatively few objects, although most of these objects would have distinctive spires to make them effective landmarks. There would be useful NPCs (bankers, merchants, etc.) placed in functionally equivalent groups around this area, and transport exits similarly spaced. The idea for this area is to provide players a useful, easily navigable area enroute to any destination, and to allow landmarks where players can place themselves to facilitate gatherings for their own purposes. (direct sales, grouping, etc).

    The transport exits would lead to caravanserai scattered around the game world near active play areas, probably near NPC cites/sites. These caravanserais would host a relatively limited number of PC trade outlets where players could offer their possessions in relatively low-density settings. To enable global shopping, a searchable index (see various existing examples in WoW, EQ, etc) would allow players anywhere to locate a preferred object by caravanserai, and travel to it fairly rapidly. These caravanserai and/or the associated NPC sites could also hold functional NPC groups which would allow groups from nearby activity areas to engage in basic inventory and quest operations without being forced to travel the full hub system. This should produce a variety of player densities, which would allow players to choose the area that best suited both their needs and tastes.

    While this system will be heavily transitory, if travel to and through these areas is sufficiently effortless, they will provide both the feeling of population and some level of ‘stickiness’, as players use them for organizational and other purposes. From abundant prior example, players do congregate in such places without special incentive beyond their being a common destination, so as Jason has said, adding content here is needless. A minimal architecture that facilitates orientation and movement together with useful services and routes to activity will be sufficient to draw players into these areas. Players will do the rest.

  17. Allen Varney said on

    Anthropologist Desmond Morris observed that an individual person may choose to eat starches or vegetables alone, but that people generally prefer to eat meat (specifically meat) in the company of others; he argued this was a holdover of our primate heritage. Whether or not Morris is correct about eating habits, it raises the question of whether there is any online activity that people instinctively prefer to perform in the company of others. Aside from chat (duh!), I can’t think of any. If there does in fact turn out to be some kind of online behavior that people want company for — I suppose I’d better qualify that as “nonsexual behavior” — then that’s the behavior to capitalize on to encourage socializing in an MMORPG.

    For me personally, the MMORPG environment isn’t a desirable place to socialize, good design or not. You have no idea who you’re talking to, nor whether they have anything in common with you other than this game. If the game integrated the usual “player profile” as a major, intrinsic part of gameplay — such that you automatically wanted to hook up with people of like demographics and interests — that would probably encourage socializing.

  18. Firecrak said on

    Do we really need people to form these new in-game friendships, or are the ones they had before entering the game enough?

    Can we overcome the fact that forming new friendships in-game is to a large degree disincentivized by the game systems?

    Well the problem with these questions is slightly more complex than first meets the eye. Talking from a powergamer perspective, most “new” friendships will not happen. Simply put, those already entering the game will either have a pre-defined power structure, be it guild or a group of friends. Others are seen as a burden, usually getting in the way of whack-a-mole gameplay, dilution of resource gathering etc. For instance, I’ve been playing with 2-3 of the same people for the last 3-4 MMO’s. I’ve known them for 4+ years online, 1 I know in real life now, all seperated by continents. I’ve given up the “newbie” notions of meeting new people, unless they prove themselves in the field (play well, do something exceptional etc). For myself, those friendships are enough. Am I saying I will never befriend another person in my MMO playing time? No, but I sure as hell won’t go out of my way to socialise in search of said friends, unless they are required (look at WoW, small guilds coming in, where REQUIRED to form a 40 man guild just to raid the high end content, usually either diluting them to the point of loot bickering and jelousy or splitting older, larger guilds due to the same problems).

    As for the 2nd question, I totaly agree that for the most part, socialising is basicly, a negative or rather a non-efficient way to spend your play time. Perhaps if developers would get away from the age-old RPG standard (my numbers vs. your numbers, numbers here being stats, gear, foozballs and cash amounts) and maybe move towards a more equal playing field where tactics and strategy won the day instead of zerg rushing or elite raiding gear (mostly to do with PVP, PVE almost always induces socialisation, because of its boredom and tedium), then perhaps, alot more socialising would ensue naturally?

  19. Brent Michael Krupp said on

    Well, EQ had lots of socializing during play because combat was so slow and downtime so extensive and grouping was generally required. So you’d have multiple stretches of time with nothing to do but chat with the 5 folks in your group. Made for getting to know lots of folks, even if it basically sucked to have such a slow game.

    Games since EQ have “improved” things and have faster combat and less downtime such that there’s almost no time to chat with groupmates at all. I got to know lots of random folks in EQ but have gotten to know almost nobody random (i.e. not in my guild and thus sharing guild chat) in all the MMORPGs I’ve played since.

    I don’t miss the slowness, but it wasn’t 100% bad.

  20. Scrote said on

    One reason “Inns” currently don’t work.

    When I say “Inns” I mean any area designated as a downtime/socialization zone.

    One reason they are difficult to implement in today’s games is due to the mechanics of how people converse within the game. When you go to a bar in the real world you can go from table to table and talk to people at each one, you can chat with a buddy at the bar, in the middle of the dance floor, in the bathroom. While doing all that you probably won’t be able to hear everything that everyone else is saying.

    In today’s online games, everyone is doing one of two things: shouting across the bar at everyone else which, obviously, leads to bedlam, or whispering/messaging someone else, which leads to a room filled with avatars standing silently staring into space with their inevitably peculiar scrunched up, sullen expressions.

    Until you guys come up with a way of implementing conversations that can be overheard if one approaches the speakers and fades away as you move away, it’s going to be hellishly difficult to expect decent socialization in these areas.

  21. GreyPawn said on

    Relationships formed in-game through social activities are the very things that keep players in the game. A community structure the player is a part of is much more difficult to leave than an anonymous crowd of faces.

    Regarding attention troughs, UO had attention troughs in the way of taverns, where the RP communities would congregate. Because they did, the Live Events team (Seers, etc) would frequent them almost exclusively. This in and of itself provided sufficient incentive to frequent. Attention troughs should never ever punish or undo some backtracking that occured as a result of player action. They should be places that provide incentive and promote gatherings and player events. Take a look at Second Life and There, both are wholly social multiplayer simulators that gauge advancement primarily through socialization.

    There are existing MMO game systems which not only incentivize forming new friendships, but practically require it for basic survival. Shadowbane serves as a prime example. In its wholly PvP environment, if you don’t make friends quick and jump into a guild, you are basically dogmeat. Don’t disregard pure survival as a fundamental game system for promoting social interaction and community building.

  22. Esharra said on

    I agree with Jason Booth when he writes:

    “AC1’s social hubs are entirely oppertunity based; the popular towns and gathering points all have to do with proximity to other locations. I’d be surprised to see a case in another game where this isn’t true.”

    No matter what the devs tried to implement with the intention of drawing us from them, creating space for trade-bots &c, we always gravitated back to the Hub. It was simply the most convenient place to gather, whether you were looking for a quest group or simply to find others to waste time with. It was convenient because it was a jump off point for a lot of content.

    For the most part, the SWG cantinas lack that convenience factor. A little over a year ago, I left the cantinas and started performing in front of Theed Starport. I based this decision on my experience with the AC1 hub. I wanted to be performing for an audience so rather than hole up in the cantina with all the bot spam, I went to where people gathered and entertained them. Because of its lack of wait time for the shuttle, the Imperial Recruiter nearby and convenient access to many locations after the introduction of Jump to Lightspeed, Theed Starport panned out to be the best spot for me and I took up residence on the street corner.

    When I migrated to the Starport I found a whole social microcosm had already developed there and I was welcomed to slip right in. There was a doctor reciting poetry he had written (or stolen) about Yoda, 3 jedi dressed in pastel hotpants doing a comedy routine and a fellow who roleplayed a retired soldier, seemed to know everyone and did most of the organizing of the seemingly spontaneous street fights. He told me he needed me there so the guys didn’t get bored and run off to DWB between skirmishes.

    What I’d suggest (while admitting to total nubness..this is your job not mine) is that you let the players decide where the Third Places will be and build on that. We’re going to gather where we want, whether you design it that way or not. Even Oldenberg talks about how Third Places seem to grow as though having a life of their own.

    Sure..I’ve a lot of other things I could say about the social experience, forced interaction, BF and what went wrong with entertainers in SWG but I think I’ll go back on lurk mode now. And yeah Raph..there’s some of us hanging in there..but it is rough..we could use your help.

    Happy Holidays to everyone, ~Esh

  23. Darniaq said on

    As a recent repatriate of SWG, I have found fascinating where the new social hubs have risen. I left with Coronet Starport was simply the place to be. Now I’m still looking, though apparently Mos Eisley is hopping again. Guess that makes sense though, given that all newbies start there. And I don’t know where veterans hang out yet.

    I don’t think developers need to wait for players to find their own social hubs, but I do think they should be in a position to react to those that form. Social hubs are based on many factors, including:
    The type of game
    Type and impact of any penalty incurred through inactivity (penalties could simply be not advancing in any meaningful way, be it XP or money)
    Relevance of direct-sale goods and services
    Whether social structures are needed outside of whatever is needed to support combat and questing
    Convenience to travel or services
    Players like to make their own things, or at least be a part of something others created. There’s probably a whole slew of reasons for this, but players will go where other people are, and where others are is based on a long slow process of ancestors making that place something worth going to.

    Overdesigning places intended to be social centers can feel contrived though. It’s hard to make it feel natural. I did think SWG achieved some cool stuff here though. I mean, why have a Nalagon, Omnnibox, and speakers out in a public square, like those that supported Esharra’s idea? Did the world design team know certain places were going to be popular outdoor gathering spots perhaps? :)

  24. Darniaq said on

    Hmm, formatting error there. The LIST html stuff didn’t translate from preview to live post. Quite likely something I did wrong again. ;)

  25. Igniferroque said on

    Have you considered the added dimension that voice communication tools add?

    I informally provide the Alliance PvPers on my WoW shard “Bleeding Hollow” a voice server where they can coordinate their efforts in one of the battlegrounds.

    Aside from it’s original purpose, it has become a social space where you can be, even if you have no unifying activity. Recently, I found myself in one of the private rooms with individuals from LA, Boston, South Carolina and DC. It was an aeronautics engineer, an opera singer, a screenwriter and an overpaid, underworked refugee from the dot.com era.

    The aeronautics engineer wasn’t even logged into the game for most of the time. I was playing a low level alt, the screenwriter was helping guildies through an instance on his main and the opera singer was doing PUGs in a battleground.

    Even with no common activity, we were socializing. We were just talking about random things like the comedy screenplays are very mathematical about the number of jokes that can be on a page or how I’d be stoned to death if I drove onto the opera singer’s school grounds while playing Eminem.

    While voice servers are no longer rare, they are still uncommon. But as they do become more commonplace, the ease of socializing in such a space and its transcendence factor into the downtime requirement?

  26. Igniferroque said on

    Interestingly enough, the above conversation had occured after we had just cleared Zul’Gurub for the first time so it was, in a way, battle-fatigue.

  27. Raph said on

    Igni (btw, weren’t you an active SWG beta poster?), you may want to go and re-read the socialization and convenience thing linked in the blog post, because it addresses that very issue — the question of the nature of individual troughs. The sort of trough that battle fatigue was trying to exploit is in fact the kind where we mythologize and socialize…

    Lots more here to comment on, but it’s almost 10pm here and I am tired. :) Thanks for the very lively discussion though!

  28. secureplay said on

    Rewarding Interaction?

    So, if I step back from this and look at the game as a business, I want to maximize my role-players. Player generated interaction costs me the least to develop and operate while creating new content for rapid levelers cost me the most. PvP arenas and fixed combat sites also are very cost-effective for me (though more expensive to operate from both a bandwidth and processing perspective than chat).

    If the game is simply more lethal (but fun), will it encourage interaction? After all, Conan probably didn’t kill as many people or creatures in his entire 12(?) volume career as the typical level-60 Warrior? This raises yet another question… if we invest in creating more interesting (i.e.,non-click) combat that takes more time, but results in fewer kills (better AI, richer strategies, etc.), is this a good ROI for a game? Maybe we can reward all of those darn gold farmers to RP orcs, rats, etc. for $$$ (outsourcing our AI)?

    Our essential game engine is still in some sense Hack…is this the right model?

    If I am going to spend dev $$s on something, it should be to maximize my return. High-level, one-time use per player content does not meet that criteria. Of course, it must be fun, but we, as developers need to trust that people are the most fun thing that we have and a great game takes advantage of that.

    Steve

  29. Aufero said on

    Part of the problem with SWG’s Battle Fatigue system was that it was negative reinforcement. It worked as a method of interrupting the grind, but it set the mood for socializing as “this is something I’m forced to do to advance in the game.” Positive reinforcement (perhaps an optional bonus to some skill or stat, only obtainable by visiting a cantina for some length of time) might have been more successful at reinforcing positive social activity, rather than encouraging people to bot through something perceived as unpleasant.

    To contrast, WoW’s massive experience (and decent itemization) for quests rewards the player for co-operation and occasional downtime, rather than serving as a disincentive for not conforming to the social design model. In addition, the experience bonus for resting in an inn or city between play sessions is a positive reward for returning to central gathering points between periods of concentrated activity.

  30. Raph said on

    The game did eventually switch to a positive reinforcement system, but it doesn’t seem to have made any difference; I even think that the amount of socialization might have fallen during that time period. It’d be interesting to dig up stats…

    To contrast with WoW yet again, I found it extremely difficult to socialize in that game, because everyone was always going somewhere and didn’t want to be interrupted or to slow down; similar effects happened to me in EQ2 and City of Heroes. The streamlining of the experience meant that there were few troughs to take advantage of, at least for my style of socializing.

    The bonus for resting does create exactly the sort of effect I am talking about though, which is to encourage proximity at a trough time; the moment of logging out is generally an attention trough, and so is the moment of logging in. I wonder how much of an effect the fact that you’re actually trying to do something else has; when you’re logging out, you’re trying to log out, and when you’re logging in, you want to go have an adventure.

    It’s also interesting that WoW does use force rather brutally in one notable case, and that’s the linearity of the experience. Exploring is actively punished at lower levels. The sensation of “this is something I’m forced to do to advance in the game” is exactly how I felt about the entire newbie experience, with the mandated quests and predetermined path. I felt choiceless.

    Clearly, there’s a balance point to strike between channeling people, and which channels you put them in. Choicelessness seems to be a good option in the case of WoW, and I wonder what that means for the future of MMOs.

  31. Aufero said on

    Those SWG stats would be interesting. I’m not sure to what degree the new behavior would have been influenced by attitudes formed during the period when socialization was still regarded as forced, though.

    You’re certainly right about socialization in WoW - in fact, in the case of quests, there may have been too much positive reinforcement for immediately running back out to start the next series of quests, and not enough for staying in town to meet other players. It would be interesting to play around with different reward mechanics on a test server and see which methods of channeling behavior produced more social interaction.

  32. Darniaq said on

    To contrast with WoW yet again, I found it extremely difficult to socialize in that game, because everyone was always going somewhere and didn’t want to be interrupted or to slow down; similar effects happened to me in EQ2 and City of Heroes

    It’s generally pretty hard, in my experience, to assess the social network within a new game experience. As you note, WoW tosses players on rails fairly quickly, giving rewards so fast even the less-experienced MMORPGers are in their 20s before they know it. The XP and money are their own sort of addictive substance, coming so fast that by the time you even start noticing them, you’re eager for more. And first starters were pulled along by the thousands of other first starters sharing their newbieness.

    A year later though, as newbies trickle in at a continually-lessening pace, the player society has begun to mature. Being a linear experience, newbies either know people already or enter a fairly silent game.

    This is why I generally don’t focus too much on socializing in a new game. There’s just too much gaming to be had, which includes everything from learning to advancing. At that point people are resources to be used in a mutually-beneficial temporary arrangement, even if you came to the game with an established social group. The virtual lifestyle component comes later than that, about when players are done learning the system and begin focusing on mastering specific features that require complementary mastery from others.

  33. Distar said on

    I found it extremely difficult to socialize in that game, because everyone was always going somewhere and didn’t want to be interrupted or to slow down; similar effects happened to me in EQ2 and City of Heroes.

    Actually EQ 1 did something right to give the achievers time to socialize: With the slow rising skill points for many classes which needed work to get them to the current levels maximum an achiver had something to do for his character advancement even when doing non combat related “social” things. This way the socializing time was not percieved completly “lost”. This concept could be extended much more.

    And i think high difficulty helps a lot here as well. If the path of advancement is set as in WoW and a series of newbie quests always shows you what to do next you have no need to socialize and search for help. Let the game be a vast open playground with lots of possiblilities and - most important - keep a certain amount of mystery. Let people work and try and exchange experience to get to know things. (Ok, i guess that’s just not possible for a mainstream game.)

  34. Raph said on
    This is why I generally don’t focus too much on socializing in a new game. There’s just too much gaming to be had, which includes everything from learning to advancing.

    This would be a fundamental difference in how you and I play. At this point, I’ve played so many MMOs and muds that there isn’t any gaming of particular interest to me in the typical introductory experiences. If I don’t meet someone to hang out with and play with in the first hour or so, I’m gone.

    That speaks to the repetitiveness of the games in general, but also to the fact that the core gameplay experience hasn’t evolved much since 1992. There simply isn’t much of anything to learn or anything new to see, and advancement palled on me over a decade ago. Content and other people are pretty much the only saving graces, barring some really new mechanics showing up.

  35. Darniaq said on

    This would be a fundamental difference in how you and I play. At this point, I’ve played so many MMOs and muds that there isn’t any gaming of particular interest to me in the typical introductory experiences. If I don’t meet someone to hang out with and play with in the first hour or so, I’m gone.

    I totally agree, and remember you making a similar statement somewhere around the corner of the ‘net. But lest I come across as someone with oodles of time to accept repetition, let me clarify :)

    I look for the community second. Sometimes this is because I’ve brought one with me (my metagaming guild). Other times it’s simply because I couldn’t get past the game itself. Each game is different in that regard, but it always comes down to the system. I can get past or around game features (ie, I never ever play a healer or damage mitigator, and don’t mind occasional glitches), but the system itself needs to appeal or I’m gone.

    I’m also a relative newbie though, only being around these games since ‘99. And, I’m also merely a dedicated end-user (though that, too, is changing). As such, I’m still learning stuff you’ve known nigh on forever :) But more so, to me, while games may be iterative, their ability to attract people who’ve not been around as long both fascinates and inspires me. When the times change, who’s there to see it?

    And, it highlights those games decidedly not iterative. That ATITD, SL, Eve, or choice others don’t have zillions of players is less important to me than the fact that these individuals and companies designed a game that attracts enough people and attention to fulfill their business plans.

    I’m basically an MMOG fanboi. Everyone’s got a different definition of success, but to me, being here to watch it all is success unto itself. We’re watching gamers embrace a style of experience technology previously did not allow for. Or, we’re getting back to the root of gaming in the first place. Or, we’re driving towards full-time VR. Whatever it is, I don’t know where it’s going. I just know I want to be there along the way and understand who’s incrementally successful and why.

  36. Jason Booth said on

    That speaks to the repetitiveness of the games in general, but also to the fact that the core gameplay experience hasn’t evolved much since 1992. There simply isn’t much of anything to learn or anything new to see, and advancement palled on me over a decade ago.

    And that about summs up my primary issues with modern MMPs; we’re just rehashing the same crap, and thats unacceptable IMO. While there has been some substanical refinement to the model, with the exception of a few indi developers, nothing is really falling far from that original tree.

  37. Mike Barnes said on

    I am fascinated by the span of tastes here for how MMORPGs should be. For myself, when I think of social interaction in a game, I imagine the last 3 panels of this VG Cats comic:

    http://www.vgcats.com/comics/?strip_id=155

    That’s not to say I haven’t met good people in games; but that’s the exception rather than the rule.

    I feel that social interaction is something that can be encouraged in a game, but it cannot be artificial or forced (like the cantinas in SWG). Players need good reasons to interact with each other — and while you may play games for the chance to meet people, I doubt most people do.

    Still, once a mainstream game with lots of subscribers gets it right and offers a compelling reason for people to communicate with one another, don’t be surprised if most of what is said is “STFU n00b. LFG: protect town. send tell”

  38. Fargull said on

    Raph,

    Comment on the PvP, mainly from a WOW standpoint, but also this has effected my play since Shadowbane. I have found that the advent of the Teamspeak Server option has lessened my need to socialize via typing. The effect; however, has isolated my playstyle to those that I know and I rarely group outside those I have guilded or are on Teamspeak. The ability to actually verbally communicate has truncated the keyboard for the vast majority of my ingame interaction. I believe this is a metamorphysis that the overall MMORG direction will need to take and allow direct in game live voice chat options.

  39. Raph said on

    Mike, I don’t play games for the chance to meet people. I do, however, play MMOs for the chance to do stuff with people. And I, like most of the world, do not have a ready-made group of online gamer friends.

    I think we tend to get into the assumption that most of the world does have that social circle, but I suspect this is perception bias because we’re surrounded by those people.

    There’s more to it than that — I’ve written before about how I dislike cliques in online games.

    Everyone prefers being with people like them, who are doing things that they enjoy too. And many communities form like that. I’d argue they are all poorer for not knowing more of others, but I do understand that they certainly don’t want to get overwhelmed or destroyed by those others. I myself would even be happy to see an online world where there were just those others that I enjoy playing with. But I must say that something in that also doesn’t feel right. The scratch ‘n’ sniff of it is elitist, it’s exclusionary, separatist. And I am still idealistic enough to think that it’s good for different sorts of people to mingle because it makes things richer for all of them.

    and

    I don’t like cliques. They are a phase we grow out of, as people. Online gaming today is full of cliques, and we encourage their formation.

    Remember in grade school when your teachers told you it wasn’t nice to leave Jimmy Four Eyes sitting at the other side of the cafeteria? When you first discovered that maybe those geeks in Chess Club had their uses? When you first realized that cheerleaders weren’t all vapid hairspray heads? When you maybe first talked with a football player who was in Remedial English and realized the role that he was having to live out, for whatever reason?

    I vividly remember all of those things, and to me, becoming an adult and being a good person is about learning to understand difference, about bridging gaps, about bringing people together. That’s why I hammer so much on the point that you can’t just label each other “jerks” or “RP nazis” with abandon, because all you’re showing is how easy it is to label and how hard it is to actually relate to other people.

    The line I’ve gotten in this newsgroup before is, “dude, they’re just games.” To which I say, there is no field of human endeavor in which the above is irrelevant.

    I like player cities more than I like guilds because you can’t quite control who ends up in a player city. I like player cities where people take stands for what they believe in and yes, struggle some for their beliefs, precisely because they learn something about themselves while doing so. And I’m hopelessly naive, idealistic, and stupid for thinking that these are the sorts of things that entertainment of all sorts teaches us, I suppose. Oh well. It’s too fundamental to my sense of self to change that opinion, I’m afraid.

  40. Esharra said on

    Raph said…

    The game did eventually switch to a positive reinforcement system, but it doesn’t seem to have made any difference; I even think that the amount of socialization might have fallen during that time period. It’d be interesting to dig up stats…
    ____________________________
    If by positive reinforcement system you are referring to the improvement to mind buffs introduced in Nov 2003, I think that exacerbated the negativity by taking entertainers from being a post-combat wind-down accessory and making them a pre-combat necessity (any advantage becomes a necessity). That was the beginning of the end for socialization in the cantinas.

    VoIP apps such as Ventrilo and Teamspeak are a boon to communication within small groups (& going without them has become a real disadvantage in group pvp combat). But they do nothing for encouraging players to broaden their contacts with others. And they totally kill roleplay.

    I think mini-games using a player’s inate skills (as opposed to game skills) would encourage greater interaction (& between diverse segments of the playerbase). If you were to drop a couple of chess tables in one of the areas where players gather, they would be falling over each other for the non-combat pvp.

  41. Jherad said on

    Wow, so much to chew on here - it is amusing (and a little disconcerting!) to find that many things that we take for granted in MMOs (duh, it’s just a Cantina) are often painstakingly constructed for various reasons - though perhaps it is a little like finding out Santa Claus is your dad.

    The cantina construct worked to an extent, but is it self limiting? The ‘battle fatigue’ enforcer was the same for any player, no matter their playstyle (casual/hardcore), meaning everyone necessarily conformed to a downtime pattern which did not necessarily fit them - and could not fit everyone, thereby breaking their immersion.

    I’m looking forward to the next ‘deep’ world (hoping that Raph has not foretold their demise!), but do worry that artificial constructs designed to encourage particular behaviour patterns will always only produce a mere shadow of what was intended.

    Without an incredibly complex social structure in a VW, with player policing, governance, economy and employment (including all the social ills that go with these), can constructs ever produce a facsimile that … works?

  42. TheMadHatter said on

    I think that a mistake is made here at times when socialization is thought of, too much as a first-class entity in and of itself when in fact it is a by-product. The cantina aspect tried to graft socialization over gameplay while ignoring the realities of that gameplay. I think that, in becoming bored with modern MMO gameplay Raph, you may have lost track of the fact that it is still the primary content for most players. Thinking of mind-buffs as a “positive reinforcement” actually shows, in my opinion, a lack of understanding for how such buffs would be perceived by players, i.e. as necessities and not niceties which simply recreates the situation where socialization “content” impacts players more greatly as a loss of gameplay than as a gain of socialization.

    Also, I think the supposed punishment occurring to roleplayers is really a non-issue and is misused here. I myself am an explorer type. I’m the guy who knows every single last equation in the game and understands them better than the devs themselves (in SWG’s case, I have the honor of meaning this literally). As such you can imagine I’m a bit of a powergamer. And I know a lot of players that play suboptimally, chat too much, etc., and don’t level as fast as they could have. And in my naivette I often try to “help” them by giving them pointers as to how they might be more efficient. Mostly because I just want an excuse to talk about how to be efficient in the game — but whatever.

    Anyway, I find that those players I try to “educate” (and I try to sound less know-it-all in the game, but I’m trying to make a point here) into better players:

    1) Rarely know that they are leveling slower than others.
    2) Only get annoyed by having this pointed out because it tries to remove them from their natural state of believing that they are good players.

    Those RP players on the RP server that are leveling 10% slower? They probably think that they are leveling twice as fast as “those idiots” on the PvP server who only know how to gank, ’sploit and grief. MMO’s, to be successful, have to convince players that they are heros, that they are good at what they do. Obviously, however, half the population of any MMO is below average. So games pump reinforcement after reinforcement until they convince almost all of their players that they are special and above average. WoW does this very well. And it’s a good example. Because newer players just glow with accomplishment and pride at their amazing quest rewards. And yet the quickest path to advancement is solo play, grinding against the same mobs and ignoring quests altogether (listen to the number cruncher, or just ask the first 60 on any new server how they got there in a week).

    So I think you are stretching that point far beyond where it deserves to go. What matters ultimately is a player’s perspective on where they are and where they are going. I think you have some good things to say about that perspective once someone IS socializing but I think your judgement wanders once you start involving gameplay.

    My own pet game mechanic for socialization is basically a “rest” system. Although I’ve been kicking around the idea since before I saw WoW’s system. And it’s not WoW’s system. Basically I think you need to let players accumulate meaningful xps that attach to anything else they want to do, when socializing. Let players sit in taverns and accumulate rest xps that translate into real xps once engaged in actual gameplay, at a rate of about half what they would earn otherwise. This creates a very real incentive, but not a necessary one, for people when their energy level drops and they don’t want to engage in intense gameplay for a while. It isn’t strictly better than going out and killing orcs. You’ll always do better with the latter. But when you become fatigued, it may be a better usage of your time to chat in the tavern and accumulate 25% of a level (a combat level, a crafting level, whatever advancement you have in your system) in rest xps. This offers socialization in a social space as an alternative advancement mechanism for standard gameplay but leaves it entirely in the players hands to socialize whenever they want, or never.

    Ultimately, whatever system you have, I think it is going to need high degrees of freedom. Because you have to go lowest common denominator in some things. Otherwise, one game mechanic makes you a niche game. There are players who never want to talk to another living soul they don’t already know in an MMO. I don’t understand them, but I don’t have to, they still exist in sufficient enough quantities to be taken seriously. And any forced mechanic is ultimately going to hit a lot of players when they aren’t ready for it. Different players want to socialize at different times. There is no single right answer about when to make players stop and chat except: whenever is convenient and interesting for that particular player.

  43. Raph said on

    Esharra:

    If by positive reinforcement system you are referring to the improvement to mind buffs introduced in Nov 2003, I think that exacerbated the negativity by taking entertainers from being a post-combat wind-down accessory and making them a pre-combat necessity (any advantage becomes a necessity). That was the beginning of the end for socialization in the cantinas.

    I wasn’t on the game by then, but I always attributed the decline to hologrinding…?

    VoIP apps such as Ventrilo and Teamspeak are a boon to communication within small groups (& going without them has become a real disadvantage in group pvp combat). But they do nothing for encouraging players to broaden their contacts with others. And they totally kill roleplay.

    What I’ve observed is that in There for example, there was social pressure not to use voice, because it was exclusionary. Of course, There does not cater to goal-oriented play.

    MadHatter:

    I think that a mistake is made here at times when socialization is thought of too much as a first-class entity in and of itself when in fact it is a by-product.

    I suspect that this is one of those playstyle gaps. :) Yes, I see socialization as a first-class entity because I have seen so many virtual worlds where it was the only entity, or occupied a position on par with combat. Unlike most of the players of MMOs today, I don’t regard online worlds as automatically being games, for example, much less see games and particularly combat as being central to them as a medium.

    I think that, in becoming bored with modern MMO gameplay Raph, you may have lost track of the fact that it is still the primary content for most players.

    Yes, this is something that is always difficult for me to keep an eye on. Part of it is that there isn’t any such thing as modern MMO gameplay. When I compare MMO combat gameplay to mud combat gameplay, only a handful of things stick out: aggro management in modern MMOs is incredibly important to the point of being the whole game, and it wasn’t that way in room-based systems; cooldown timers per move were not generally used, and instead there was a single cooldown timer; mobs don’t tend to have particularly complex strategies in the MMOs. That’s about it. Not enough to make me really see it as different.

    And, to be honest, the ocmbat isn’t all that interactive in most of the games, either.

    Those RP players on the RP server that are leveling 10% slower? They probably think that they are leveling twice as fast as “those idiots” on the PvP server

    Keep in mind I am coming at this from a perspective where there isn’t a PvP server and an RP server; when you can see the Joneses on your server advancing past you, it’s a lot more evident.

    And it seems to me that your tavern proposal would quickly result in taverns full of AFK bots racking up the 25% freebie XP, wouldn’t it? :) It’s actually easier than fighting the orcs.

  44. TheMadHatter said on

    I suspect that this is one of those playstyle gaps. :) Yes, I see socialization as a first-class entity because I have seen so many virtual worlds where it was the only entity, or occupied a position on par with combat.

    Which games are you referring to? Outside of a few MUSH’s once upon a time I don’t know of any games where social play was truly first class. In my gaming history (going back to coding DIKU derivatives and including all sorts of fringe games from Achaea to ATitD) socialization was always derivative in the vast majority of games (and those games which bear the most relevance to MMO’s). Even Bartle’s paper refers to socialization primarily as a derivative act. The game is the reason to make the jump from IRC. IMO. If there isn’t any fun game of any sort, there isn’t an interesting enough context around which to socialize. That’s one area where I think SWG failed. It had some great hooks for social players but not enough hooks to keep the achiever/killer/explorers that would continue the stories and drama that the socializers could hang on to. And a lot of the hooks for the social players actively infringed on the gamer types sending even more of them away.

    When I compare MMO combat gameplay to mud combat gameplay, only a handful of things stick out: aggro management in modern MMOs is incredibly important to the point of being the whole game, and it wasn’t that way in room-based systems; cooldown timers per move were not generally used, and instead there was a single cooldown timer; mobs don’t tend to have particularly complex strategies in the MMOs.

    I’d argue there’s a lot more than that. You can’t kite in a mud — run speed is never a factor outside of a few interesting cases. Few muds have anything resembling the crowd control of EQ+. Crafting systems for most muds well, suck. There are cool outliers like Planetside. Admittedly, mostly things have stayed the same.

    But that’s obviously what the audience wants. It’s not what I want. It may not be what you want. But it’s what 1 million WoW subscribers want, and most of your own companies players want more or less the same stuff. With a paper like this you really have to prove that what you want isn’t a fringe concept.

    Keep in mind I am coming at this from a perspective where there isn’t a PvP server and an RP server; when you can see the Joneses on your server advancing past you, it’s a lot more evident.

    But poor players on PvP servers don’t know that they are leveling slow either. Talk to them. Ask them. The whole point of a game like WoW is convincing the players that just because they spend 4 hours playing and level, they are good. Even though half of them are below average and most of the gameplay requires little skill anyway. And they do it well. Those RP’ers and socializers and otherwise poor players will mostly not notice something so subtle as a 10% loss in xps.

    And it seems to me that your tavern proposal would quickly result in taverns full of AFK bots racking up the 25% freebie XP, wouldn’t it?

    Yeah, well that’s what I get for leaving out some of the details and assuming knowledge of the rest. One important bit as that, as “rest” xps, it works like WoW’s “rest”. You aren’t actually gaining true experience. You are gaining a bonus to future experience that is earned playing the actual game (example: sit in a tavern for half an hour and you gain a 50% experience boost for the next 10% of a level). Also, there would have to be some limit as to how far ahead of yourself you could get. 1-3 hours of play worth. So you could rack up 1-3 hours worth of enhanced xp gains and then use them. If players really want to sit around AFK for this, fine. But I think by providing other hooks and interesting ways to socialize (and just relying on players natural inclinations to do so of course), you’ll still find a fair amount of them spend that time as you intended it — as a fatigue-buster in between bouts of activity.

    It is always the case that you could earn more xps by playing. But it is the case that you still feel productive if instead you sit around and chat for a while. I suppose you could look at it the other way and say that it partially removes punishment for socializing. Personally, I think players will tend to perceive it the other way around but I’m sure that perspective is correct for at least some.

  45. Eric Random said on